Wormhole Assault: MA Style

Jonathan_S wrote:

cthia wrote:That's the same thing I was thinking. I remember being shocked to learn that a fort has the firepower of several SDs. That is why I say you cannot let something the size of an LD tip-toe thru the tulips into your back yard. Consider what a single fort could do if it could get as close as an LD. And remember, the LD will be seeding the area with surprises like a spider spinning webs that snare. When the fireworks starts, the heat is on.

To expand on what Theemile said, the reason that forts can devote a significantly higher percentage of their mass to warfighting is because:
* it has a much more spherical hull, since it doesn't need to conform to the tapered spider shape imposed by alpha nodes or by the triple skegged triangular shape imposed by the spider drive. That gives it more area to mount missile tubes, point defense, ECM hardware, spare decoys, etc.

Very informative post. I'm digesting and taking it under advisement. But remember that the MA operates with different "policies" which would greatly affect how they pack their warship's luggage. For instance, escape pods are probably nonexistent. The MA will not want their crew captured. So, no escape hatches either. And, as ruthless as they are, who is to say what the crew eats. They could be fed lots of gooey substances from tubes. These realities alone will save on lots of volume compared to an SD. As far as a fort, do forts carry escape pods? Being that the better part of the navies in the galaxy is undoubtedly nicer to its crew than the MA, I'd wager yes.

Do we know the crew complement of an LD vs forts?

Jonathan_S wrote:* it can devote far less volume to propulsion. No need for the mass and volume intensive alpha nodes necessary for wormhole transit or use of grav wave; it can maneuver (when it must) on a single ring of beta nodes. And spider drives seem even more mass and volume intensive since its not 4 rings encircling the diameter of the hull, but 3 rows of massive projectors running the entire length of the hull.

Is the surface area of those massive projectors available for malignant toys?

Jonathan_S wrote:* it doesn't need to carry a hyper generator so that gives it more internal volume for all the weapons and equipement.

* it normally fights inside a bubble sidewall, meaning there are no vulnerable angles where luck, or maneuvering skill, could grant the enemy or their missiles a shot at the chinks in its defenses. So it should be far less subject to "golden BBs" (Though to be fair this bubble sidewall generator is apparently going to be taking up quite a fair bit of the extra volume the fort has thanks to its hullform and lack of hyper generator.

(And of course, on top of that a modern RMN fort is something like 50% larger than their SD(P)s - so nastier ton for ton, as well as way more tons)

A Lenny Det won't have most of those advantages. It may not have Alpha nodes, but as mentioned Spider Drive seems even more mass and volume intensive. Also, RFC's indication that they can transit wormholes might mean they might have spiders + alpha nodes; which is worst of both worlds in terms of mass and volume devoted to propulsion. Their hull form is, if anything, even less efficient than an SDs - especially since they need to mount weapons on all three "broadsides" instead of the SDs two only. (Though that does mean if they get caught at energy range in the middle of a hostile force they can at least fire in more directions than an SD, but fewer than a fort -- OTOH unlike the SD they don't have any sides from which they're immune to damage) Unlike the forts they still need to carry a hyper generator. And they may well also carry the huge generator for a bubble sidewall (which at least gives them the same all round protection as the fort -- at the apparent cost of being equally unable to maneuver while so protected)

But, if an LD can operate inside a bubble sidewall from inside the enemy's pajamas while unleashing their fury in a surprise fashion, they may not need to maneuver. It may all be over very quickly. LDs may not be able to deliver a short victorious "war" at the end of the day. But I'm betting short victorious "battles" will be the norm. Forts maneuver to reposition before battle, not so much during battle. No?

Question. Is the bubble sidewall generally visible or detectable?

Jonathan_S wrote:All that seems to make it at least as likely that, ton for ton, they'll be less deadly in open combat than an SD - though they might edge out many SDs on an absolute basis simply due to all their extra tons. (And their stealth abilities can be a significant force multiplier all their own - as long as they're not forced into an open slugging match)

Agreed, for the most part.

Certainly if an LD is detected before it slots into place, perhaps. But when something that big opens up its initial engagement in a surprise fashion in what passes as its knife-fighting range - and whatever comprises its knife-fighting tactics - I'm not so sure.

cthia wrote:Very informative post. I'm digesting and taking it under advisement. But remember that the MA operates with different "policies" which would greatly affect how they pack their warship's luggage. For instance, escape pods are probably nonexistent. The MA will not want their crew captured. So, no escape hatches either. And, as ruthless as they are, who is to say what the crew eats. They could be fed lots of gooey substances from tubes. These realities alone will save on lots of volume compared to an SD. As far as a fort, do forts carry escape pods? Being that the better part of the navies in the galaxy is undoubtedly nicer to its crew than the MA, I'd wager yes.

You're making assumptions not based in text or David's errata. The MAN officers are also Alpha lines. Would they not want good food and the ability to escape? I'm not saying it's not possible, but let's not hang our hats on anything not based in facts.

Do we know the crew complement of an LD vs forts?

The Leonard Detwiler class has not even been launched, and we have basically no details about it other then what has been stated, and the crew size has never been even hinted at.

Forts are multiple different classes and levels of tech. Shutting down 60 of their oldest forts freed up 1.5 million spacers in the RMN post retaking San Martin. The newest RMN forts are in the 12-16Mton range (but could be built up to 30 Mtons if the RMN Wished) with the same design philosophy as the Invictuses (a Crew of ~900 for an 8.7 Mton SD). Some Forts are massive, armed and armored LAC bases, others are Missile chuckers with massive pod bays and shoals or pre-deployed pods to control, while older ones are energy weapon pugilists. Forts in active areas are manned 24/7 hot readiness - meaning large crews. Many may also have gold/blue crews where the entire crew is on rotation for a period and taken off for downtime (meaning no R&R facilities on ship)

So we're comparing unknown soup to (a wide assortment of) nuts.

Is the surface area of those massive projectors available for malignant toys?

Nothing, the projectors emit tractor beams. Why would you place something on top of a emitter or projector - by it's very name, it's the thing on top.

But, if an LD can operate inside a bubble sidewall from inside the enemy's pajamas while unleashing their fury in a surprise fashion, they may not need to maneuver. It may all be over very quickly. LDs may not be able to deliver a short victorious "war" at the end of the day. But I'm betting short victorious "battles" will be the norm. Forts maneuver to reposition before battle, not so much during battle. No?

Question. Is the bubble sidewall generally visible or detectable?

Once again, we have not seen a Spider get that close to a target without getting detected. Also, their only battle was against an enemy that didn't know the drive existed to be looking for it.

That has changed.

Forts can maneuver under a wedge just like a SD, but have the option to engage their bubble wall.

Remember the Scene in SVW where the 4 Havenite BCs attempted to jump an unaware DN - the DN was just cruising along and instantly got sidewalls and counter defenses up with just a few seconds notice. Forts are usually at battle readiness, or at least a step down from it - they will react even more quickly than the DN did. Most will have their defenses up.

All Gravatics like wedges and side walls are visible for 10's of might minutes in every direction. So yes, a Bubble Sidewall will be instantly seen by everybody.

EVERYBODY.

Agreed, for the most part.

Certainly if an LD is detected before it slots into place, perhaps. But when something that big opens up its initial engagement in a surprise fashion in what passes as its knife-fighting range - and whatever comprises its knife-fighting tactics - I'm not so sure.

Remember SDs (and Forts) are designed to take hundreds of individual hits. Even the RMN overkill of the outdated Scientists required an average of 150 10-laserhead missiles to incapacitate (RMN and Havenite SD(P)s required 500 or more missiles to accomplish the same thing). You are not going to get a reliable 100% kill on the first try, your opponents are just too well protected.


You have never addressed what the purpose of this assault is and what it is supposed to accomplish long term. If you attack the junction with a couple of LDs in knife fighting range, they get bogged down, localized and destroyed, doing a considerable, but not incapacitating, amount of damage for a loss of all attackers, and a few hours of lost revenue for the junction. If you send the entirety of your LD fleet (60-100 ships) you will most likely lose the majority to entirety of the force and at best destroy the Junction infrastructure. You will not have the forces to hold it after the battle and the RMN mobile forces will retake it, for the effective loss of your entire fleet. And the junction will be back in business a day or five later.

The first question when planning any offensive, is what is the plan's objective. It defines what you forces you will be facing, what forces you need to bring, what those forces need to accomplish, and why this offensive is required to accomplish the greater, war winning objectives.

You have a battle plan without an objective.

If all you want to do is obstruct junction traffic, there are easier, less risky options in the Malign portfolio - like using the LDs to fire gobs of Gtorps (or just drop them out of freighters) at a light month out, which will randomly attack freighters in line at the junction. If the Manties find a way to see the spider drive - they just intercept Gtorps, not LDs. Zero to slim risk of LDs getting caught, and after months of daily random Gtorp attacks, no merchies will use the junction, and the Manty government will slowly starve for cash.

cthia wrote:I'm not disputing that since you are cavorting with Jayne behind my back. But I was under the impression the RMN's brood of missiles have such hellacious ECM because of their enormous power budget. The RMN soon realized the ship itself can benefit from the same ECM as their missiles. Which made me wonder why the ECM of other warships isn't as formidable, since the ship itself has a huge power budget. Personally, I don't expect the MA to be as short-sighted with its ECM ... being the LD is as close to an eggshell as you can get. And, well, other navies wouldn't develop their warship's ECM to affect other ships when in knife-fighting range because they wouldn't expect to get to knife-fighting range without it being a moot point. And because missiles are a moot point at that range, at least for other navies.

Which would include traditional knife-fighting ranges and the LD's knife-fighting range.

There's ECM and there's ECM.

The missiles' ECM is very different from an LD's stealth. A missile can't hide: the wedge can be detected from light-minutes away. Maybe not with sufficient precision to shoot it, even if it weren't evading, but detect it nonetheless. So the principle of the missile ECM is not to pretend it's not there, it's to sufficiently confuse the detection so the enemy can't tell exactly where it is. The power budget is used to saturate the enemy receivers with static and hash, jamming it.

Stealth is the exact opposite. You want the least amount of emissions.

I suppose that if the LD were detected, it could have a powerful ECM suite to avoid getting localised as a contingency. Maybe this is one of the cards up the sleeve that RFC hasn't shared with us yet. But we're talking about hiding a 12 million tonne monster that is running at most at 250 gravities. A sufficient number of missiles will take care of it and a Tier 1 or 2 planet in the GA will easily throw 10,000 missiles at it. And those 4-stage babies we've never seen in action can reach any target in the system at terminal velocity.

And remember that the LDs were designed prior to the escalation of missile counts. We never got the exact missile count for Buttercup-era actions, but I expect they were in the range of 1,000 to 2,000 in the large engagements. The Alliance and the RoH only began climbing to 10k-missile salvoes in late 1920 or 1921, when the LD was already designed. Was that initial design scrapped and updated to account for the gigantic MDM launches? Especially after Apollo? Even the MAlign would have a hard time getting an accurate after-action report (and believing it!) that said Honor fired 62,000 missiles at the Battle of Manticore.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:And remember that the LDs were designed prior to the escalation of missile counts. We never got the exact missile count for Buttercup-era actions, but I expect they were in the range of 1,000 to 2,000 in the large engagements. The Alliance and the RoH only began climbing to 10k-missile salvoes in late 1920 or 1921, when the LD was already designed. Was that initial design scrapped and updated to account for the gigantic MDM launches? Especially after Apollo? Even the MAlign would have a hard time getting an accurate after-action report (and believing it!) that said Honor fired 62,000 missiles at the Battle of Manticore.

Indeed. But their defense against that remained the same - to not be spotted, potentially into the extremes of energy ranges. And once they're there, podlayers can't roll anymore - their pods are interdicted by energy fire, nullifying their entire missile capability.

I think the other Buttercup introduction, modern LACs, is far more dangerous to spider ships, particularly as star systems can be defended by literally hundreds or thousands of LACs instead of a handful of SD(P)s. Sure, graser torpedoes can still destroy the LACs' bases, but with such numbers some LACs will always be patrolling or training and will survive such attacks.

And the spider ships themselves can't track so many stealthy vessels. Oyster Bay only worked because the RMN and GSN LACs weren't patrolling in great quantities, didn't even know such a threat was possible. Now they do.

The odds are pretty good that without a huge grav noisemaker on board that you will have a significantly higher signal to noise ratio and hence the range where a stealthy signature merges into noise is a LOT longer. So you can detect them a lot farther away.

This assumes you don’t do something like search for neutron emitters from largely unshielded fission reactors or tritium fusion or neutrino emissions from fusion reactors. At which point the whole honorverse concept of stealth goes out the window. Not that the MAN would do anything totally unexpected and generally considered infeasible, as that would be so unlike them.

Theemile wrote:

cthia wrote:Very informative post. I'm digesting and taking it under advisement. But remember that the MA operates with different "policies" which would greatly affect how they pack their warship's luggage. For instance, escape pods are probably nonexistent. The MA will not want their crew captured. So, no escape hatches either. And, as ruthless as they are, who is to say what the crew eats. They could be fed lots of gooey substances from tubes. These realities alone will save on lots of volume compared to an SD. As far as a fort, do forts carry escape pods? Being that the better part of the navies in the galaxy is undoubtedly nicer to its crew than the MA, I'd wager yes.

You're making assumptions not based in text or David's errata. The MAN officers are also Alpha lines. Would they not want good food and the ability to escape? I'm not saying it's not possible, but let's not hang our hats on anything not based in facts.

Do we know the crew complement of an LD vs forts?

The Leonard Detwiler class has not even been launched, and we have basically no details about it other then what has been stated, and the crew size has never been even hinted at.

Forts are multiple different classes and levels of tech. Shutting down 60 of their oldest forts freed up 1.5 million spacers in the RMN post retaking San Martin. The newest RMN forts are in the 12-16Mton range (but could be built up to 30 Mtons if the RMN Wished) with the same design philosophy as the Invictuses (a Crew of ~900 for an 8.7 Mton SD). Some Forts are massive, armed and armored LAC bases, others are Missile chuckers with massive pod bays and shoals or pre-deployed pods to control, while older ones are energy weapon pugilists. Forts in active areas are manned 24/7 hot readiness - meaning large crews. Many may also have gold/blue crews where the entire crew is on rotation for a period and taken off for downtime (meaning no R&R facilities on ship)

So we're comparing unknown soup to (a wide assortment of) nuts.

Is the surface area of those massive projectors available for malignant toys?

Nothing, the projectors emit tractor beams. Why would you place something on top of a emitter or projector - by it's very name, it's the thing on top.

But, if an LD can operate inside a bubble sidewall from inside the enemy's pajamas while unleashing their fury in a surprise fashion, they may not need to maneuver. It may all be over very quickly. LDs may not be able to deliver a short victorious "war" at the end of the day. But I'm betting short victorious "battles" will be the norm. Forts maneuver to reposition before battle, not so much during battle. No?

Question. Is the bubble sidewall generally visible or detectable?

Once again, we have not seen a Spider get that close to a target without getting detected. Also, their only battle was against an enemy that didn't know the drive existed to be looking for it.

That has changed.

Forts can maneuver under a wedge just like a SD, but have the option to engage their bubble wall.

Remember the Scene in SVW where the 4 Havenite BCs attempted to jump an unaware DN - the DN was just cruising along and instantly got sidewalls and counter defenses up with just a few seconds notice. Forts are usually at battle readiness, or at least a step down from it - they will react even more quickly than the DN did. Most will have their defenses up.

All Gravatics like wedges and side walls are visible for 10's of might minutes in every direction. So yes, a Bubble Sidewall will be instantly seen by everybody.

EVERYBODY.

Agreed, for the most part.

Certainly if an LD is detected before it slots into place, perhaps. But when something that big opens up its initial engagement in a surprise fashion in what passes as its knife-fighting range - and whatever comprises its knife-fighting tactics - I'm not so sure.

Remember SDs (and Forts) are designed to take hundreds of individual hits. Even the RMN overkill of the outdated Scientists required an average of 150 10-laserhead missiles to incapacitate (RMN and Havenite SD(P)s required 500 or more missiles to accomplish the same thing). You are not going to get a reliable 100% kill on the first try, your opponents are just too well protected.


You have never addressed what the purpose of this assault is and what it is supposed to accomplish long term. If you attack the junction with a couple of LDs in knife fighting range, they get bogged down, localized and destroyed, doing a considerable, but not incapacitating, amount of damage for a loss of all attackers, and a few hours of lost revenue for the junction. If you send the entirety of your LD fleet (60-100 ships) you will most likely lose the majority to entirety of the force and at best destroy the Junction infrastructure. You will not have the forces to hold it after the battle and the RMN mobile forces will retake it, for the effective loss of your entire fleet. And the junction will be back in business a day or five later.

The first question when planning any offensive, is what is the plan's objective. It defines what you forces you will be facing, what forces you need to bring, what those forces need to accomplish, and why this offensive is required to accomplish the greater, war winning objectives.

You have a battle plan without an objective.

If all you want to do is obstruct junction traffic, there are easier, less risky options in the Malign portfolio - like using the LDs to fire gobs of Gtorps (or just drop them out of freighters) at a light month out, which will randomly attack freighters in line at the junction. If the Manties find a way to see the spider drive - they just intercept Gtorps, not LDs. Zero to slim risk of LDs getting caught, and after months of daily random Gtorp attacks, no merchies will use the junction, and the Manty government will slowly starve for cash.

I do not think the MA will want their crew to escape in pods that will undoubtedly be collected by the enemy, per the Deneb Accords? True, I am making certain assumptions but it is based on certain elements of storyline. The MA's OpSec has always been secrecy first, life second. Do I think it would matter that their crew are Alphas? I do not. Remember, Alphas have already been sacrificed in the name of secrecy. Daddy Detweiler even sacrificed himself for the cause, and he was the highest-ranking Alpha. Their escape will undoubtedly be the destruct sequence of the LD in conjunction with the nanite kill mechanism. Do you seriously doubt that? Even after all the sordid and sickening tales of ruthlessness? Including the horrid wholesale culling of entire lines, including babies? Sure, the MA will love for their crew to return, but if facing capture? No.

As far as food, I'm sure Alphas eat well. Generally. But if certain missions call for certain sacrifices, those sacrifices will be made. What requirement of a sacrifice could/would go beyond that of a forced suicide?

As far as the soup and nuts, the menu cuts both ways regarding space for the displacement of ordnance. Heck, the LD could turn out to be an insanely automated Killer Whale with a complement of several dozen. Unlikely to be so efficient, but you get the picture.

Why place something atop the emitters which are already atop something? Why not? Conservation of space. And necessity is oftentimes the mother of invention.

Agreed, we have not seen an LD tip-toe thru the tulips, but we also do not know that they cannot. MA stealth may already have accomplished it offscreen and David simply hasn't served that wine until its time. Perhaps we haven't seen them because they are so stealthy.

It may be a moot point that a bubblewall can be seen if it can be engaged so quickly. If the offending ships which launched on the LD have been destroyed, then their orphaned salvos won't matter. Simply reinitiate the Spider Drive after the missiles have been destroyed.

Actually I thought my purpose for the attack was obvious, beyond a successful wormhole assault.

I have always maintained that I think the MA will open up with one of the galaxy's most popular plans of "a short victorious war." We all seem to agree they cannot afford a protracted war against the GA. With their unprecedented technology along with the element of surprise, I think the MA has the best chance of all of pulling it off. Why would they hold back when they attack? They can shut down the MWJ and use it for their own movement. Why wouldn't they dispense the lion's share of their LDs to the cause? Remember, Home Fleet may be taken out in the opening engagement. If not, Home Fleet may be busy with the invisible ships which control the orbitals.

I like your plan of starving the system. My plan could simply be the coup de grâce.

Here's the thing. I don't think the MA can afford not to go for the jugular when they officially commit to war. They cannot afford to throw away the element of surprise. Plus, even if they lose every single LD, they still have a hidey hole to retire to to fight another day. Another century.

The author isn't a spring chicken. Can he afford to drag the story about the MA along in as many books as the Peeps? Or even the SL?

cthia wrote:I do not think the MA will want their crew to escape in pods that will undoubtedly be collected by the enemy, per the Deneb Accords? True, I am making certain assumptions but it is based on certain elements of storyline. The MA's OpSec has always been secrecy first, life second. Do I think it would matter that their crew are Alphas? I do not. Remember, Alphas have already been sacrificed in the name of secrecy. Daddy Detweiler even sacrificed himself for the cause, and he was the highest-ranking Alpha. Their escape will undoubtedly be the destruct sequence of the LD in conjunction with the nanite kill mechanism. Do you seriously doubt that? Even after all the sordid and sickening tales of ruthlessness? Including the horrid wholesale culling of entire lines, including babies? Sure, the MA will love for their crew to return, but if facing capture? No.

As far as food, I'm sure Alphas eat well. Generally. But if certain missions call for certain sacrifices, those sacrifices will be made. What requirement of a sacrifice could/would go beyond that of a forced suicide?

I agree with you there: the MAN OpSec will make those ships self-destruct with the loss of all hands if the ship is compromised above a certain threshold during battle. They cannot afford pieces of their hardware or intel from some key personnel to fall on enemy hands. The hardware is the most important thing here, though. The key personnel who has access to restricted MAN intel will likely have suicide nanites anyway. The MAN won't care if some gamma spacer does survive, so long as they can't lead the GA back to Darius.

But can they afford the risk that the gamma actually can do that?

I also agree that the MAN personnel, be they alpha, beta or gamma, will accept a lot of sacrifices in the name of The Plan. They've been doing that for centuries, after all. The suicide nanites are a good example of that. And Albrecht suiciding is a good example for all to follow. Note: he's probably Alpha Plus; like in the Tzenkethi Coalition in Star Trek, that ranked their people based on genetic and intelligence aptitude tests from A to E, the autarch was actually level AA (his name was Korzenten Rej Tov-AA; Rej is his position and Tov means he's a member of the government).

But that doesn't mean they can't have some luxuries aboard. HV ships are big enough that they can do that for everyone, even the lowliest enlisted spacer, and the LD should be no exception. But this is one of the things we have to suspend disbelief on.

Why place something atop the emitters which are already atop something? Why not? Conservation of space. And necessity is oftentimes the mother of invention.

The point is that the spider is a tractor beam emitter. If you put something on top of it, you're blocking the emitter. We know the spider is actually a very good very short range weapon too: the beam is strong enough to tear anything apart. So you really don't want to put important things on top of it.

That includes limpet pods. You can only put them on the portions of the hull that are not blocking the spider emitters.

It may be a moot point that a bubblewall can be seen if it can be engaged so quickly. If the offending ships which launched on the LD have been destroyed, then their orphaned salvos won't matter. Simply reinitiate the Spider Drive after the missiles have been destroyed.

That depends on the range, of course. The signal of the bubblewall allows the opponent to pinpoint where the LD was. As time passes, that information becomes less relevant. Missiles that are close by, especially those with an Apollo Control Missile nearby (even orphaned), can use that to home in and hammer that bubble wall. The LD has to keep it up while missiles are coming.

TBH, I don't see why it would turn to bubblewalls in the first place. The only case I can think of is when the launching ships have already been destroyed, there are no other ships left, and those are orphaned missiles. If there are other defenders left, every time the bubble wall comes up, more missiles will be launched. And the moment it comes on for the first time, all ships will scatter, making torpedo solutions impossible.

I have always maintained that I think the MA will open up with one of the galaxy's most popular plans of "a short victorious war." We all seem to agree they cannot afford a protracted war against the GA. With their unprecedented technology along with the element of surprise, I think the MA has the best chance of all of pulling it off. Why would they hold back when they attack? They can shut down the MWJ and use it for their own movement. Why wouldn't they dispense the lion's share of their LDs to the cause? Remember, Home Fleet may be taken out in the opening engagement. If not, Home Fleet may be busy with the invisible ships which control the orbitals.

I like your plan of starving the system. My plan could simply be the coup de grâce.

Here's the thing. I don't think the MA can afford not to go for the jugular when they officially commit to war. They cannot afford to throw away the element of surprise. Plus, even if they lose every single LD, they still have a hidey hole to retire to to fight another day. Another century.

The author isn't a spring chicken. Can he afford to drag the story about the MA along in as many books as the Peeps? Or even the SL?

I agree that that's the only plan possible for them. They have to overwhelm their enemies in one stroke, or in a series of very closely spaced engagements that there's no one left to oppose them. Because the second battle won't be as easy as the first: there's a low but non-zero chance that some HW will fall to the enemy and they'll develop some sort of counter. Or at least keep bubble walls always up.

The problem there is that it takes a lot of resources to overwhelm the GA and the League. Unlike the original plan, those are actually strong. The SLN will even be deploying pod-layers in three years' time and will have an evolution on Cataphracts pretty soon. And I don't see the MAlign marshalling sufficient resources in the time before the curve tilts in favour of their enemies.

It's a simple matter of math. They have one inhabited system that can produce those ships, as the RF can't. The GA has five Tier One systems, dozens of Tier Two including Bolthole, and a dozen of first-class shipyards building warships. The SL doesn't have the technology (yet) but it has the industry.

In terms of production, it's a no-brainer. What the MAlign has on its side is that those others will not sustain war-time building without an enemy.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:The hardware is the most important thing here, though.

The hardware, and the location of Darius. Which certain crew members will undoubtedly know. The MA can ill-afford to allow so many of their crew to fall into enemy hands, giving the enemy so many nuts to crack. Sooner or later the GA will find a way to circumvent the kill switch. Especially if given so many switches to practice on to decide which one of the red, blue, or green wires to cut to disable the bomb inside the brain.

One thing I'm not sure of is whether the kill switch can be self-engaged or whether improper questions is the only trigger. I suppose deciding to talk on one's own accord will do the trick too. It is also interesting whether the GA is prepared to be ruthless enough themselves to get results. Like performing a lobotomy in attempt(s) to stay an execution. If so, they can simply use 'Eeny meeny miny moe' on those neural connections inside the brains of hapless prisoners. Which would be totally acceptable in this particular bomb scare. LOL

I agree, Albrecht provided a good example for all to follow. He could also be thought of as the Edward Saganami of the MA. A toast could be raised aboard each ship before each mission. "To what passes as Ladies and Gentlemen. To the King" or "Die as you must so the tradition lives on."

I agree that the LD will have luxuries aboard. I don't really think a spartan diet would be required. It is just that it wouldn't surprise me. At any rate, one luxury could be a gaggle of sex slaves at their beck and call. Many an army had sex slaves. But for many of them, just getting to see a bit of the galaxy will be the ultimate luxury. LOL

As far as the many LACs patrolling the system. Well, the LDs can be a pain in the ass for that plan if the bases are destroyed and the LACs are orphaned. At any rate, as somebody else once opined. What is a LAC to do if it does stumble upon a mothership?
"Oh shit! Pull up! Pull up! Pu—

Anyway, LACs operate in squadrons during battle, no? If so, then the same hinky geometry that enabled barricade to work should also work for the MA with their slower 3-second firing gtorps going off near the front of a tightly packed MA launch. What's good for the MA is good for the MA. Get it? Manticoran Alliance. Mesan Alliance?

Gee this is a tough crowd.

cthia wrote:The hardware, and the location of Darius. Which certain crew members will undoubtedly know. The MA can ill-afford to allow so many of their crew to fall into enemy hands, giving the enemy so many nuts to crack. Sooner or later the GA will find a way to circumvent the kill switch. Especially if given so many switches to practice on to decide which one of the red, blue, or green wires to cut to disable the bomb inside the brain.

Some crew will know secrets that the MAlign can't afford to let out, but my point is that they already have a solution for that: the suicide nanites. They aren't worried about people outliving their shipwrecks.

But you're also right that they should plan for when the nanites can be circumvented. Plus, if the crew is going to suicide anyway, there's no point in making a lot of allowances for them escaping the ship in the first place. I just don't want to be aboard if a ship suffers a serious engineering casualty in a friendly system!

I agree, Albrecht provided a good example for all to follow. He could also be thought of as the Edward Saganami of the MA. A toast could be raised aboard each ship before each mission. "To what passes as Ladies and Gentlemen. To the King" or "Die as you must so the tradition lives on."

"Today is a good day to die"

I agree that the LD will have luxuries aboard. I don't really think a spartan diet would be required. It is just that it wouldn't surprise me. At any rate, one luxury could be a gaggle of sex slaves at their beck and call. Many an army had sex slaves. But for many of them, just getting to see a bit of the galaxy will be the ultimate luxury. LOL

I'm confused as to whether Darius has a slave population. I seem to remember them not having that, unlike Mesa. But discussions here are different. Can anyone remind me?

Anyway, the problem with live slaves aboard is that they sometimes can get loose. Many a slaver was taken over by their captives, even with all the devices meant to keep them confined. And a ship going into battle may suffer structural damage that could compromise those devices. So why invite trouble?

As far as the many LACs patrolling the system. Well, the LDs can be a pain in the ass for that plan if the bases are destroyed and the LACs are orphaned. At any rate, as somebody else once opined. What is a LAC to do if it does stumble upon a mothership?

Shoot it out of the sky. Trading 20 30k-tonne LACs for one 12 Mtonne mothership is still in the GA's favour. They'll do it in a pinch, even if none of the LACs survive.

And if they survive, they return back to the planet and leave on escape pods. They don't need an LAC base or CLAC. The mission has already been accomplished.

"Oh shit! Pull up! Pull up! Pu—

You do know what happens if an LAC rams an LD at a fraction of the speed of light relative, right? The LD will not like it. The LD crew will hope that the LAC only hits one of the extremities and takes out the Warshawski sails. If it hits midway, the ship may break in two. And that's if it doesn't cause a cascade failure of the reactors.

Anyway, LACs operate in squadrons during battle, no? If so, then the same hinky geometry that enabled barricade to work should also work for the MA with their slower 3-second firing gtorps going off near the front of a tightly packed MA launch. What's good for the MA is good for the MA. Get it? Manticoran Alliance. Mesan Alliance?

Gee this is a tough crowd.

The barricade was wedge-forward. In that geometry, the LACs shrug any graser barricade.

To hit more than one LAC with the same graser beam, they need to be hit mostly from the side, where sidewalls do happen. It's not an impossible shot, but it's even more difficult than hitting forts with one shot. Forts are huge installations just sitting there, so the torpedo can manoeuvre into position. LACs are small and aren't sitting there. And it gets exponentially more difficult with each LAC that you're trying to hit.

Ok, an LAC that is evading is one that doesn't have both bow and sternwalls up. So it's possible for a torpedo to sit in front of the oncoming LAC wing and shoot at them up the kilt while their bowwalls aren't up. The trick is that they won't be flying on the same plane (there's a reason we talk about "ships of the wall" instead "ships of the line" in HV). The torpedo would need to make a complex gyration to target more than one and it may not have an up-the-kilt targetting solution on more than a handful.

And that's not talking about LACs on stealth approach. We know they can be vewwwy quiet.

At a combined 250 gravities relative acceleration, an LD and its torpedo need 15 minutes to be 1 million km apart. If the LD detects the oncoming LAC wing too late, they will be in their own energy weapons range before the torpedo can manoeuvre into position.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:
You do know what happens if an LAC rams an LD at a fraction of the speed of light relative, right? The LD will not like it. The LD crew will hope that the LAC only hits one of the extremities and takes out the Warshawski sails. If it hits midway, the ship may break in two. And that's if it doesn't cause a cascade failure of the reactors.

Anyway, LACs operate in squadrons during battle, no? If so, then the same hinky geometry that enabled barricade to work should also work for the MA with their slower 3-second firing gtorps going off near the front of a tightly packed MA launch. What's good for the MA is good for the MA. Get it? Manticoran Alliance. Mesan Alliance?

Gee this is a tough crowd.

The barricade was wedge-forward. In that geometry, the LACs shrug any graser barricade.

To hit more than one LAC with the same graser beam, they need to be hit mostly from the side, where sidewalls do happen. It's not an impossible shot, but it's even more difficult than hitting forts with one shot. Forts are huge installations just sitting there, so the torpedo can manoeuvre into position. LACs are small and aren't sitting there. And it gets exponentially more difficult with each LAC that you're trying to hit.

Ok, an LAC that is evading is one that doesn't have both bow and sternwalls up. So it's possible for a torpedo to sit in front of the oncoming LAC wing and shoot at them up the kilt while their bowwalls aren't up. The trick is that they won't be flying on the same plane (there's a reason we talk about "ships of the wall" instead "ships of the line" in HV). The torpedo would need to make a complex gyration to target more than one and it may not have an up-the-kilt targetting solution on more than a handful.

And that's not talking about LACs on stealth approach. We know they can be vewwwy quiet.

At a combined 250 gravities relative acceleration, an LD and its torpedo need 15 minutes to be 1 million km apart. If the LD detects the oncoming LAC wing too late, they will be in their own energy weapons range before the torpedo can manoeuvre into position.

Or what happens if a LAC clips the LD with it's wedge (which is dozens of KMs wide) neither spider drive nor bubble sidewall should offer any protection from a wedge strike of even a small ship (though the bubble wall will protect from wedge strikes of missiles).

And with a wedge strike the closing velocity is irrelevant.

OTOH we're told a a ship cannot have a full bow and full stern wall active at once. You can have a full bow wall + a stern buckler (or the other way round) at the expense of being unable to use the wedge to accelerate or turn. Or you could have just a buckler up at each end and still have full use of the wedge.

However, as best we can reconstruct it, the geometry seems to show a buckler can only protects from fire within a couple of degrees of the ship's center line. So between the wedge opening, normal sidewalls, and buckler, there are far more angles from which fire from mostly ahead (or astern) can hit the ship than there are angles protected by at least a sidewall.



Still, a LAC could accelerate towards an identified LD then pivot and duck behind its wedge as it approached energy range - then the LD would have to kill it with short range missile or torp fire, as the broadside energy mounts wouldn't have an angle around the wedge at the LAC. And the rest of the LACs in the squadron would presumably be helping beat back any missiles the LD launched. (And at close range missiles are too slow to be difficult targets; even given their high acceleration)