Information I'd love to know

cthia wrote:

Coxswain

The coxswain is the person in charge of a boat, particularly its navigation and steering. The etymology of the word gives a literal meaning of "boat servant" since it comes from cock, a cockboat or other small vessel kept aboard a ship, and swain, an Old English term derived from the Old Norse sveinn meaning boy or servant.

Can someone give me a better etymology or even definition, than this?

SWM wrote:How about "helmsman"? The man who steers the boat. That's essentially what the definition means. Note also that Chief Killian is called both coxswain and helmsman at different points in OBS.

Thanks for the response. Yet I'm certain that coxswain predates helmsman. I was hoping to get a better feel for where, why, or how it originated. I was hoping for a more personal anecdote, perhaps, from a military type.

cthia wrote:Thanks for the response. Yet I'm certain that coxswain predates helmsman. I was hoping to get a better feel for where, why, or how it originated. I was hoping for a more personal anecdote, perhaps, from a military type.

OED gives references to 'coxswain' under various spellings going back to 1463. The 'cox' goes back to 'cock' (a small ship's boat, thank you very much), which got into English from French with various spellings for the same root all over Western Europe, with other references going back to the 15th century too. 'Swain' comes into English from Norse. While we can't rule out the Normans (just a couple centuries removed from being Vikings themselves) bringing it and French to Britain (having rammed a French word into a Norse one at some point), my guess is it is more likely that 'coxswain' came together in Britain itself after the Conquest.

'Coxswain' for someone steering a 100,000 ton starship has clearly come a long way from the person directing a .05 ton wooden boat.

I'm not military, so take this with a grain of salt:

JeffEngel wrote:

cthia wrote:Thanks for the response. Yet I'm certain that coxswain predates helmsman. I was hoping to get a better feel for where, why, or how it originated. I was hoping for a more personal anecdote, perhaps, from a military type.

'Coxswain' for someone steering a 100,000 ton starship has clearly come a long way from the person directing a .05 ton wooden boat.

I've seen the role in fictional books of the "ship of the wall" period and the rank was always one of respect, different than the bosun (who might have to exercise alot of rough treatment to enforce discipline). In modern navies, it is a "Chief Petty Officer" rank, the way I use it is "master of the helm", which on a sailing ship may or may not be the one steering the rudder at any given time, but is the person who tells the enlisted crew which kind of sails to set, etc. Watch the DVD for Master and Commander, for example and you'll see the role in action, though I don't know if they refer to that person by rank.

Transferring the term forward to powered navies and the Honorverse, for example, neither the captain nor pilot (astrogator) are standing on the deck 24x7, that's a crew position, though the higher ranking officers might "take the helm" as needed. The coxwain would set a course and "make it so", have his underlings keep to the course and maintain the nav logs, etc. make assignments, take the helm at times, etc. That takes that entire load off of the captain, until different orders are given.

cthia wrote:Thanks for the response. Yet I'm certain that coxswain predates helmsman. I was hoping to get a better feel for where, why, or how it originated. I was hoping for a more personal anecdote, perhaps, from a military type.

Yeah, it predates helmsman by a few hundred years. It's from Middle English, which is why it looks funny. But I don't think you are going to get any personal anecdotes about the origins of a term at least 600 years old.

The etymology you already have is the best etymology available. We really can't pin the origins of words that old down very well.

SWM wrote:

cthia wrote:Thanks for the response. Yet I'm certain that coxswain predates helmsman. I was hoping to get a better feel for where, why, or how it originated. I was hoping for a more personal anecdote, perhaps, from a military type.

Yeah, it predates helmsman by a few hundred years. It's from Middle English, which is why it looks funny. But I don't think you are going to get any personal anecdotes about the origins of a term at least 600 years old.

The etymology you already have is the best etymology available. We really can't pin the origins of words that old down very well.

Particularly since English is the result of Norman knights trying to pick up Angle-Saxon barmaids.

More information about the relative positions of the wormhole termini.

I have 3 images of the Honorverse which show completely different positions for the other end of the Erewhon terminus.

1 The map as of Torch of freedom places the other end at Joshua at approximately the 4:30 position in relation to Sol.

2 The multi-coloured map shows the other end at Sasebo at approximately the 8:00 position in relation to Sol

3 The Tales of Honor map shows the other end at Joshua at approximately the 2:00 position relative to Sol.

Anyone care to enlighten me on which is correct?

George J. Smith wrote:More information about the relative positions of the wormhole termini.

I have 3 images of the Honorverse which show completely different positions for the other end of the Erewhon terminus.

1 The map as of Torch of freedom places the other end at Joshua at approximately the 4:30 position in relation to Sol.

2 The multi-coloured map shows the other end at Sasebo at approximately the 8:00 position in relation to Sol

3 The Tales of Honor map shows the other end at Joshua at approximately the 2:00 position relative to Sol.

Anyone care to enlighten me on which is correct?

The 8:00 position is correct. The system is Sasebo, with an inhabited planet named Joshua.

"SharkHunter"]I'm not military, so take this with a grain of salt:
"JeffEngel"]"cthia"]Thanks for the response. Yet I'm certain that coxswain predates helmsman. I was hoping to get a better feel for where, why, or how it originated. I was hoping for a more personal anecdote, perhaps, from a military type.[/quote]

'Coxswain' for someone steering a 100,000 ton starship has clearly come a long way from the person directing a .05 ton wooden boat.[/quote] I've seen the role in fictional books of the "ship of the wall" period and the rank was always one of respect, different than the bosun (who might have to exercise alot of rough treatment to enforce discipline). In modern navies, it is a "Chief Petty Officer" rank, the way I use it is "master of the helm", which on a sailing ship may or may not be the one steering the rudder at any given time, but is the person who tells the enlisted crew which kind of sails to set, etc. Watch the DVD for Master and Commander, for example and you'll see the role in action, though I don't know if they refer to that person by rank.

Transferring the term forward to powered navies and the Honorverse, for example, neither the captain nor pilot (astrogator) are standing on the deck 24x7, that's a crew position, though the higher ranking officers might "take the helm" as needed. The coxwain would set a course and "make it so", have his underlings keep to the course and maintain the nav logs, etc. make assignments, take the helm at times, etc. That takes that entire load off of the captain, until different orders are given.[/quote]

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Just as a point of reference,
coxswain is a position or watchstation as well as a qualification level.
In today's wet navy, the Bosun is the head of Deck Department on most USN ships and is frequently a senior Warrant Officer (usually CWO4 who was a Bosun's Mate in his younger years)
The Captain (or the Flag) decides where the ship goes; Navigator and (in the USN) Quartermasters plot the course; Helmsmen steer as directed on the course.

-- Stewart (USN-ret)

About the dynamics of Steadings. Are individual members of Steadings legally allowed to seek admittance into another Steading? If so, I would be surprised if Honor doesn't have tons of applicants. I'd also be surprised if her Steading doesn't end up being the largest.

cthia wrote:About the dynamics of Steadings. Are individual members of Steadings legally allowed to seek admittance into another Steading? If so, I would be surprised if Honor doesn't have tons of applicants. I'd also be surprised if her Steading doesn't end up being the largest.

IIRC, they have to have the permission of their current steadholder to transfer to another steading.