THE C R U S H E R

pnakasone wrote:One problem with the Crusher is that it is not a genuine life or death situation. No matter how hard they try some people will get threw such rigorous testing only to fail in the heat of battle.

That is true. But you can test for it. As I said, in the Perisher course, one thing that is tested and prepared for is panic. It doesn't guarantee anything, no. Though the proper instruction and testing is there.

The E wrote:Name a single military on the planet which has mortal danger and actual warfare on its syllabus for their commanding officer courses.

I would imagine all, in an indirect manner. In training exercises people die. Officers have to be tested for command decision. Perhaps there are no courses titled "mortal danger" on the syllabus but I'm certain a disclaimer and or warning is contained in various footnotes or briefings.

The CO has death on his hands. We hear about jets crashing from exercises all of the time. And soldiers accidentally dying on the field. It's real out there. And there ain't no atheists in the foxholes on a dry run either, because live rounds are being used where possible. One of the main plot scenes on Top Gun was a death, Goose. Because these guys jobs are to push the envelope. Some of us are having a problem transitioning from the expectations of the book and the expectations of the human element of putting yourself on the field - stepping into the shoes of the situation. I see that a lot here on the forums. You are at ease with how it works on paper. But how it really works in the real world eludes you. It is the lesson that Rodney Dangerfield taught to his own instructor in his Economics class when going "Back to School." The real world. That's what Fighter Weapons School is all about.

We're simply discussing it here, yet we're failing to recognize that they are making it a life and death situation on the training field because it's going to be a life and death sitrep down the road.

Back to Top Gun for instance, and Maverick's confidence problem because his copilot died in training (transcript below)...

Maverick: My options, sir.

Viper: Simple. First you've acquired enough points to show up tomorrow and graduate with your Top Gun class, or you can quit. There'd be no disgrace. That spin was hell, it would've shook me up.

Maverick: So you think I should quit?

Viper: I didn't say that. The simple fact is you feel responsible for Goose and you have a confidence problem. Now I'm not gonna sit here and blow sunshine up your ass, Lieutenant. A good pilot is compelled to evaluate what's happened, so he can apply what he's learned. Up there, we gotta push it. That's our job. It's your option, Lieutenant. All yours.

Maverick: Sorry to bother you on a Sunday, sir, but thank you very much for your time.

Viper: No problem. Good luck.


People say you can't test for this and you can't test for that. I say nay. THIS IS THE C R U S H E R! They don't call it that for nothing. The human element of the Crusher prepares you to think on a dime, like an old sports car I once had that could stop on a dime. It wasn't necessary in Santino's case to think on a dime, he had some time. There is pressure to be found in the Crusher. Like its namesake the Perisher, it's a pressure cooker! You may be sweating bullets before you enter the complex that day.

You don't progress beyond the capabilities of an 800# gorilla to go on and become the premiere naval force in the galaxy if your Advanced Tactical Naval Academy hasn't found a way to test you for panic. You may not have your life on the line literally, (though accidental lives happen in training exercises that are designed to be as close to real life as possible) but if my career "as according to cthia" is dependent on passing the ATC, then it is a life and death situation. People really have trouble with the human element. Don't you remember early in your life when you were sweating over simply passing your driver's exam? Because your career depended on it! And people die in the United States Navy Strike Fighter Tactics Instructor program, TOP GUN!

Because your enemies are trained to push the envelope as well.

If Pavel Young passed the Crusher and he wasn't stupid, then he'd have never forsaken the squadron Honor was trying to save. Because he would have known what she was trying to do. Lives matter. If he didn't know what she was trying to do, then he was stupid. If he did know and he just didn't give a shit about the men represented by his uniform then that is unacceptable by any meterstick. And IMHO, that was amongst the first breaking points for Honor regarding Young. Because it had something to do with duty. Young was truly disgusting in her eyes then. It is the one point that she knew she was better than he, regardless of social class. He leaves an awful taste in my mouth too Honor.

So which is it for Young? If he was competent, then he was stupid. If he was incompetent then he was stupid.

Same for Santino, if he was competent, then he was stupid. If he was incompetent, then he was stupid.

Same for Janacek. Except that he also gets three gold stars and a 'par for the course' written and presented to him on a dunce cap.

I would imagine that there are field trips scheduled as well during matriculation, certainly for LAC jockeys where they "push the envelope."

Borrowing one of Jonathan's posts...

Jonathan_S wrote:From what we've been told a LAC command does not require you to be an ATC graduate. And you sometimes, very rarely, can get a first hyper-capable command (like a destroyer; especially an older one) without attending the ATC. But you'd almost certainly be assigned to attend ATC before any chance of a second command. And if you didn't pass you wouldn't get a second command, you'd end up in some other non-command possition.

But there are a ton of jobs that aren't warship command that also aren't desk jobs; aboard ship Engineering, Medical, Weapons, Communications, Flight Operations, pilot, etc. don't require ATC graduates - even for department heads. (also there are 'desk jobs' and then there are 'desk jobs'; being on an Admiral shipboard staff, helping coordinate a squadron, or fleet is probably much more engrossing way to fly a desk than managing the spare parts inventory in a shipyard).

However, being fair, in most of those non-command tracks you'd eventually end up promoted to a station or shipyard.

I am going to assume that since a CLAC is hyper-capable and considering the size that she is requires a CO that is a Crusher. But they aren't ever supposed to see action themselves, per se. Though I'm certain the beautiful, brilliant and golden-haired Alice Truman passed the Crusher amongst the top percentile in her class.

[quote="cthia"]

So which is it for Young? If he was competent, then he was stupid. If he was incompetent then he was stupid.

Same for Santino, if he was competent, then he was stupid. If he was incompetent, then he was stupid.

Same for Janacek. Except that he also gets three gold stars and a 'par for the course' written and presented to him on a dunce cap.

quote]

Its always possible that Pavel was "strong enough" until he broke during the First Battle of Hancock.

Given that until the 1st Havenite War the RMN operations were against second rate units (pirates) most of whom avoided RMN units, combined with the fact Pavel spent a good chunk of his career sitting in orbit around Basilisk or escorting tramps, its very possible that he passed the Crusher (which may have been different to the one Honor faced, given the difference in when they went ATC and it's possible that it had different Commandant) but was then never challenged, combined with his "Social Position" no one was prepared to openly report him.

We know from conversation between White Haven and James Webster, that he wasn't "pleased" with his performance but for "political reasons" couldn't dismiss him.

From memory the tute classes were about 10 of us, with a grad student acting as a tutor.

Lab classes were different but I don't remember exactly.

That was back when I had a drinking problem.

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kzt wrote:

saber964 wrote:IIRC we have another idiot getting promoted beyond there capabilities, namely Elvis Santino. IIRC HH wondered how he had passed ATC in AoV.

Also what about Edward Janacek. IIRC in HoS he was two or three grades above Hamish (IIRC they were in the same academy class) and was being pushed up the chain by family influence.

Janacek wasn't incompetent, he was wrong.

Remember Hamish's interaction with Janacek, "If I hadn't seen it for myself, I wouldn't have believed that you could get any more stupider."

Janacek was definitely stupid. His stupidity made him incompetent.

cthia wrote:

kzt wrote:Janacek wasn't incompetent, he was wrong.

Remember Hamish's interaction with Janacek, "If I hadn't seen it for myself, I wouldn't have believed that you could get any more stupider."

Janacek was definitely stupid. His stupidity made him incompetent.

After David first posted the letter written from young Lt Rodger Winton to the naval procedings about modernizing and increasing the Wall and Capt. Janacheck's reply, I made a post about how this was a call by a future monarch and what he expected to do with the navy, and Janacheck was foolish to counter him.

David replied, and said that Janacheck wasn't wrong, he was trying to guide younger officer as to the realities of then current combat, feeling he was reigning in an over exuberant officer (who would gain a very high leadership position) who didn't see things as someone who had a lengthy career had learned the hard way.

At the end of the day, Janacheck was a dinosaur who was living in an earlier age, and viewing current events through those filters. He was slow to see the Havenite threat, because they never were in the past, and saw the 25 ship wall as a mammoth force (because it still is in most circles), and knew the merchant marine and it's navy escorts was the lifeblood of the Kingdom. H also was political, and vengeful, laying the political game and ruining others in it's name.

So Janacheck's viewpoint isn't wrong, it's outdated and from an earlier time with different realities. And like many people, he tried to make reality fit those correct, but outdated notions, not realizing how Manticore's role and responsibilities had changed.

cthia wrote:Borrowing one of Jonathan's posts...

Jonathan_S wrote:From what we've been told a LAC command does not require you to be an ATC graduate. And you sometimes, very rarely, can get a first hyper-capable command (like a destroyer; especially an older one) without attending the ATC. But you'd almost certainly be assigned to attend ATC before any chance of a second command. And if you didn't pass you wouldn't get a second command, you'd end up in some other non-command possition.

But there are a ton of jobs that aren't warship command that also aren't desk jobs; aboard ship Engineering, Medical, Weapons, Communications, Flight Operations, pilot, etc. don't require ATC graduates - even for department heads. (also there are 'desk jobs' and then there are 'desk jobs'; being on an Admiral shipboard staff, helping coordinate a squadron, or fleet is probably much more engrossing way to fly a desk than managing the spare parts inventory in a shipyard).

However, being fair, in most of those non-command tracks you'd eventually end up promoted to a station or shipyard.

I am going to assume that since a CLAC is hyper-capable and considering the size that she is requires a CO that is a Crusher. But they aren't ever supposed to see action themselves, per se. Though I'm certain the beautiful, brilliant and golden-haired Alice Truman passed the Crusher amongst the top percentile in her class.

Well since she had held several cruiser commands (not to mention an armed merchant cruiser in Silesia) before getting command of HMS Minotaur I'm sure she had long since graduated from ATC.

We know that the commander of an individual LAC doesn't need to have passed the ATC. But now that you mention it I'm not 100% sure how it would apply to a CLAC's Captain, though I expect at least for now they are drawn from the same pool of ATC graduates as other warship captains.

Especially for the Minotaur class CLACs with their small MDM missile batteries. Even though the COLAC would be responsible for formulating the original tactics of the LACs (so you'd want them to be an ATC graduate) I can't see the Admiralty being willing to waive that general requirement. IOW I can't see them being treated as armed support ships like a fast missile collier or repair ship -- those don't seem to require ATC grads as their commanders.

Maybe in the future if the RMN goes down the route of specializing CLACs the big unarmred versions (that always drop their brood and run from beyond the hyper limit) will get seen more like support ships and you'll only need to be an ATC grad if you want to command the assault / close support CLACs that stay with the fleet during combat to support the LAC screens...

But that's all speculation as we've no text ev on this.

cthia wrote:

The E wrote:Name a single military on the planet which has mortal danger and actual warfare on its syllabus for their commanding officer courses.

I would imagine all, in an indirect manner. In training exercises people die. Officers have to be tested for command decision. Perhaps there are no courses titled "mortal danger" on the syllabus but I'm certain a disclaimer and or warning is contained in various footnotes or briefings.

There is no, repeat, no officer candidate school on this planet that puts the people in it in a situation where their commands will materially affect a battlefield situation or puts them in a situation where their commands make a life-or-death difference.

Sure, training to be a soldier isn't exactly safe (as training mishaps throughout history can attest), but the kind of moral fortitude (or lack thereof) that is at the core of the issues with Santino's or Young's behaviour can only be tested in situations where literally everything is on the line for them, and that's something no training, no matter how realistic, can actually simulate.

The CO has death on his hands. We hear about jets crashing from exercises all of the time. And soldiers accidentally dying on the field. It's real out there.

When a soldier dies in training, it's a tragedy, of course. But crucially, the moral weight of such an incident do not usually lie with the people in training, but the trainers.

And there ain't no atheists in the foxholes on a dry run either, because live rounds are being used where possible. One of the main plot scenes on Top Gun was a death, Goose. Because these guys jobs are to push the envelope.

Pro tip: When making arguments about how it works in the real world, stick to the real world. Don't bring other fiction into it.

Some of us are having a problem transitioning from the expectations of the book and the expectations of the human element of putting yourself on the field - stepping into the shoes of the situation. I see that a lot here on the forums. You are at ease with how it works on paper. But how it really works in the real world eludes you. It is the lesson that Rodney Dangerfield taught to his own instructor in his Economics class when going "Back to School." The real world. That's what Fighter Weapons School is all about.

I don't know anything about pilot training (my personal military experience is restricted to being trained as a medic during a period where Germany wasn't engaged in major warfare).

And whatever point you were trying to make doesn't work. We're not talking about people training to be fighter pilots. They're training to be naval officers in an environment that is considerably safer than any naval training one can encounter in real life (as in, while honorverse starships have unsafe areas, they are restricted to the power and propulsion systems; there's no chance of someone falling overboard, as it were).

We're simply discussing it here, yet we're failing to recognize that they are making it a life and death situation on the training field because it's going to be a life and death sitrep down the road.

Again: The issue with Santino or Young was that no training in the world can uncover the specific character flaws that led to them failing in a combat situation. They were in a situation where they had people rely on them to make life-or-death decisions on their behalf, and no matter how realistic your training procedures are, no sane military will hand the fate of its soldiers off to an officer candidate who hasn't finished training. That's just. not. done.

People say you can't test for this and you can't test for that. I say nay. THIS IS THE C R U S H E R! They don't call it that for nothing. The human element of the Crusher prepares you to think on a dime, like an old sports car I once had that could stop on a dime. It wasn't necessary in Santino's case to think on a dime, he had some time. There is pressure to be found in the Crusher. Like its namesake the Perisher, it's a pressure cooker! You may be sweating bullets before you enter the complex that day.

The basic layer of artifice that goes with a school scenario (which ATC is) removes a lot of pressure that exists in a real-life situation.

It is utterly impossible for a military like Manticore's (i.e. one with a strong appreciation for how non-expendable soldiers are) to construct training scenarios where a cadet has the responsibility to give the right commands or he and the people put under his command die. It's that simple.

You don't progress beyond the capabilities of an 800# gorilla to go on and become the premiere naval force in the galaxy if your Advanced Tactical Naval Academy hasn't found a way to test you for panic. You may not have your life on the line literally, (though accidental lives happen in training exercises that are designed to be as close to real life as possible) but if my career "as according to cthia" is dependent on passing the ATC, then it is a life and death situation. People really have trouble with the human element. Don't you remember early in your life when you were sweating over simply passing your driver's exam? Because your career depended on it! And people die in the United States Navy Strike Fighter Tactics Instructor program, TOP GUN!

Having their life literally on the line in an actual, honest-to-god war was what was needed to break Young and Santino. As shown by their previous careers, they were able to handle less intense situations. Expecting a course like ATC to ramp up to pressure like that or beyond is illusory.

If Pavel Young passed the Crusher and he wasn't stupid, then he'd have never forsaken the squadron Honor was trying to save. Because he would have known what she was trying to do. Lives matter. If he didn't know what she was trying to do, then he was stupid. If he did know and he just didn't give a shit about the men represented by his uniform then that is unacceptable by any meterstick. And IMHO, that was amongst the first breaking points for Honor regarding Young. Because it had something to do with duty. Young was truly disgusting in her eyes then. It is the one point that she knew she was better than he, regardless of social class. He leaves an awful taste in my mouth too Honor.

Your desire to believe that Young is the embodiment of all that can be bad in an officer and your belief that he should have been washed out long before his real failings became apparent is blinding you.

So which is it for Young? If he was competent, then he was stupid. If he was incompetent then he was stupid.

Same for Santino, if he was competent, then he was stupid. If he was incompetent, then he was stupid.

You are apparently also unfamiliar with the concept that intelligent adults can make decisions that turn out to be wrong.

Same for Janacek. Except that he also gets three gold stars and a 'par for the course' written and presented to him on a dunce cap.

I would imagine that there are field trips scheduled as well during matriculation, certainly for LAC jockeys where they "push the envelope."

Except that LAC flying never involves doing low-level flight over mountainous terrain. There are no maneuvers an LAC can pull that are as dangerous as that.

I sure would like to know who graduated with the highest honors in Honor's graduating class. In TOP GUN it was Iceman.

Who truly crushed the Crusher? The valedictorian.

I recall quite a few courses I crushed. Although my first two attempts at Chemistry handed me my head.

If you can't handle the simulation you almost certainly won't be able to handle it in real life (thought there are some rare people who do better under that kind of stress) but being an expert at solving simulations has very little to do with being able to handle the exact same situation when your life and the lives over everyone under you are on the line.