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(SPOILERS) Expected defeat at Beowulf.

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Re: (SPOILERS) Expected defeat at Beowulf.
Post by cthia   » Sat Dec 05, 2015 1:11 pm

cthia
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kzt wrote:
cthia wrote:Question. Is it already established in textev that the SLN will be present in Beowulfan space during the plebescite as 'overseers?' If so, what force is given?

No, that's part of what the supergeniuses running the SL decided to add. The books are pretty good, you should read them. :P

ART Ch35
“You mean Kingsford and Bernard are thinking in terms of pouncing on Beowulf—coming straight in across the hyper limit and going flat out for the planet—before any Manty forces at the terminus can intervene?”

“I think that’s about the only thing they could be thinking of,” al-Fanudahi said. “I don’t know if it would work, but assuming Beowulf hasn’t been completely surrounded by new and nasty missile pods, a big enough force of superdreadnoughts, especially with enough of the new Technodyne missile pods, probably could fight its way in through the BSDF and the fixed defenses. And once they controlled the planetary orbitals, they’d be justified under interstellar law in demanding the system’s surrender.”

“And exactly where in this fascinating analysis of yours do the Manty superdreadnoughts come in?” Teague inquired politely. “You know, the ones over at the terminus? The ones who are going to come right back over to Beowulf and kick our sorry asses out of the star system?”

“Oh, those superdreadnoughts?” Al-Fanudahi smiled crookedly at her. “Well, I suppose the idea would be that once the system government surrendered to us, we’d announce special emergency elections—called at the insistence of the Beowulfan public, of course—in light of the existing Board of Directors’ high-handed and probably treasonous actions. And no doubt that new, legitimate system government would denounce the previous system government’s decision to even consider seceding from the Solarian League. Obviously, it would be incumbent upon us to recognize new, legitimate—I did mention that it would be legitimate, didn’t I?—system government’s position. And, equally obviously, Manticore would be on very thin ice when it came to denying the legitimacy of that new system government, given their desire to avoid the puppet master image. So the logic, I imagine, is that since what Manticore really needs is control of the Beowulf Terminus, the Manties would recognize a fait accompli when they saw it and let us have the Beowulf System back.”

“And if the Manties don’t roll over that way?”

“In that case, I would imagine, our fleet commander negotiates a withdrawal from the star system. Probably on the grounds that the orders which sent him there in the first place had misread the true sentiments of the Beowulfers. Now that he’s had the opportunity to observe firsthand that the decision to secede enjoys genuine popular support, of course he’s prepared to acknowledge that and retire from the lists. Of course, if Manticore is so unreasonable as to deny a negotiated, peaceful withdrawal with no further combat, our commander can’t be held responsible for any collateral damage that might befall the system infrastructure—and population, unfortunately—in the course of an unprovoked Manticoran attack upon his peaceably departing forces.”

The books are pretty good. And I should reread them. Except, I'm not given so much time. Poor me.

One element I don't understand. Until the vote to secede, Beowulf is still part of the League. Therefore, the League has a right to station an SLN force in orbit to protect what is still rightfully SLN space -- no?

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: (SPOILERS) Expected defeat at Beowulf.
Post by kzt   » Sat Dec 05, 2015 1:27 pm

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cthia wrote:One element I don't understand. Until the vote to secede, Beowulf is still part of the League. Therefore, the League has a right to station an SLN force in orbit to protect what is still rightfully SLN space -- no?

David has implied that without a declaration of war the SL has no ability to do anything like that. SL members are independent nations that strongly guard their autonomy.
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Re: (SPOILERS) Expected defeat at Beowulf.
Post by cthia   » Sat Dec 05, 2015 1:35 pm

cthia
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kzt wrote:
cthia wrote:One element I don't understand. Until the vote to secede, Beowulf is still part of the League. Therefore, the League has a right to station an SLN force in orbit to protect what is still rightfully SLN space -- no?

David has implied that without a declaration of war the SL has no ability to do anything like that. SL members are independent nations that strongly guard their autonomy.

But that is still SL space. A large force out on 'maneuvers' can pay a friendly visit to League members. No? How can the parent navy of the League be summarily dismissed from one of its peripheral systems?

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: (SPOILERS) Expected defeat at Beowulf.
Post by kzt   » Sat Dec 05, 2015 1:46 pm

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cthia wrote:But that is still SL space. A large force out on 'maneuvers' can pay a friendly visit to League members. No? How can the parent navy of the League be summarily dismissed from one of its peripheral systems?

Sure. As long as they stay more then 12 light hours outside the hyperlimit. And it's Core system.
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Re: (SPOILERS) Expected defeat at Beowulf.
Post by Brigade XO   » Sat Dec 05, 2015 2:05 pm

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Several points

Beowulf is a Soverign Star System that is also a member of the SL. That is it going to vote about seceding for the SL is a separate matter. The SL might be within it's rights to send some "observers" to attempt to certain that the actual plebiscite is a "free" election, sending a fleet of Naval Warships into the system and to orbit the planet is anything except observing- it is exactlly the same kind of intimidation that both Manticore and Beowulf want to avoid being used as a propoganda ploy the the Manderins

In the course of planning Oyster Bay, the Alignment clearly (this was mentioned) that the attack was specifically designed to avoid a deliberate or accidental commitment of an EE event from the weapons used to take out the orbital infrastructure. THE ALIGNMENT DELIBERATLY A DIRECT OR "ACCIDENTAL" SHOT AT ANY OF THE PLANETS BY THE ATTACK. HOWEVER---any "collateral" damage as the result of pieces of the things targeted or destroyed falling on the planet we just ignored by the attack plans as just accidents that could happen but were not PLANNED. That they could be expected--do you really think that a gazillion ton 70 MILE LONG industrial and military space station is going to be vaporized and not produce debris even if every single one of the multiple fusion power sources cooks off as a result of massive structural and explosive damate to it? Does the EE language determine that causing massive structures and structural debris to fall out of the sky onto a planet constitute a deliberate event or does it only quantify the kind of strike in which the attacker DELIBERATLY shoots a the planet which has not ceased resisting once the criteria of holding the orbitals and ordering surrender have come to pass? The Alignment didn't care where the pieces went- though they could be reasonably sure a bunch of them (even massive ones that would't burn up in the atmosphere) were going to hit one or more planet they were orbiting.

If you are the Alignment, sending a Spider Drive ship with a Spider Drive missile or two, could - as had been suggested in this thread- show up several light hours outside the hyper limit of Beowulf and send one or both missiles in. Spider Drive might not be as effective as an impeller drive in a missile but a really long (that whole three light hours part) acceleration is going to put massive speed on the projectile. It doesn't need a warhead, it just needs mass.
A planet is fairly easy to project as a target, it's large (relatively) and it's in a predictable obit around it's star. You could even wait till a "diplomatic" ship (even a passenger ship) arrives carrying the "observers" the SL insists on sending to watch the election and then launch you Spider driven mass. Who is going to detect something at 200 tons (or 5,000) of low reflective and otherwise physicaly stealthed rock or -say mass of solid SD type ARMOR -comming at the planet ballistically at a truly breathtakingly % of C?
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Re: (SPOILERS) Expected defeat at Beowulf.
Post by cthia   » Sat Dec 05, 2015 2:24 pm

cthia
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kzt wrote:
cthia wrote:One element I don't understand. Until the vote to secede, Beowulf is still part of the League. Therefore, the League has a right to station an SLN force in orbit to protect what is still rightfully SLN space -- no?

David has implied that without a declaration of war the SL has no ability to do anything like that. SL members are independent nations that strongly guard their autonomy.

Funny you should mention that, because I was trying to determine any convenient advantages or disadvantages to the League formally declaring war.

If they were to say "I de-clare war" :D) then Beowulf would be instantly turned into a Checkpoint Charlie with enemy forces looking into the whites of each other's eyes.

Any disadvantages other than probable lack of preparedness?

An aside:
Manticore has already recognized and stated that a de facto state of war already exists. So doesn't that give certain de facto rights and responsibilities to the SLN to protect SL space from de facto acts of war? Can't the League use that as leverage?

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: (SPOILERS) Expected defeat at Beowulf.
Post by Relax   » Sat Dec 05, 2015 3:20 pm

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SLN defeat at Beowulf is gonna go something like this:

RMN is at the junction.
SLN shows up via crash translation
SLN goes balls to the wall to the planet
RMN micro jumps, but SLN is already ~150Mkm inside hyperlimit

Beowulf has KH2 platforms built, but not enough pods/missiles

Beowulf depletes her pods missiles, but still another ~500 SLN SD's left.

RMN shows up at hyperlimit, sees it is desperate and uses the KH2 platforms inside Beowulf space that the SLN, ignored as they thought they were "useless", and the

RMN then proceeds to shred the SLN from 200Mkm distant.

Our heroes then ride off into the never setting sunset of Beowulufan space.....
_________
Tally Ho!
Relax
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Re: (SPOILERS) Expected defeat at Beowulf.
Post by Xuan-Wu   » Sat Dec 05, 2015 4:55 pm

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I just thought about something...

The onlthing needed to detonate a nuke on Beowulf... is a nuke ON Beowulf...

Mesa already prooved they can travell great distances covertly.

What if they decided to smugle some warheads on ground, detonate them andput the blame on the Mandarins. If the pull it of during the spacefigh, they could always tell people that the solies are responsibles.

Who could put them to judgment ?

The mandarins. ? They already told everyone that mesa don't exist.

The GA ? With what proofs ?
Can I have a treecat RFC?
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Re: (SPOILERS) Expected defeat at Beowulf.
Post by Loren Pechtel   » Sat Dec 05, 2015 5:01 pm

Loren Pechtel
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kzt wrote:
Loren Pechtel wrote: If the Beowulf CMs don't get a 100% kill the planet eats the missile.

A 200 ton dust cloud hitting the atmosphere at .6C will still ruin your entire weekend.


Sollie missile don't reach .6c.

However, that is why I said that nailing one with a laser cluster is useless.
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Re: (SPOILERS) Expected defeat at Beowulf.
Post by Loren Pechtel   » Sat Dec 05, 2015 5:07 pm

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SharkHunter wrote:One more: apparently at a convention David mentions a high number of Beowulfan fatalities, we're assuming an Eridani violation.

I disagree. No SLN officer is going to frag a member planet, the MAlign wants to survive and take the league apart, not unite them behind the one thing that David says will unite everybody to hunt and kill those responsible. The Mandarins are desperate, but not stupid.


Sure, the Sollies aren't going to pull an Eridani violation. A Mesan mind-controlled saboteur on a Sollie ship is another matter, though. In the long run I think it would be a bad thing for the Alignment but they're idiots about the reality of their plans, they think things will go as they expect.
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