Total $Tax Rates$ In The Honorverse? ...

kzt wrote:

Jonathan_S wrote:Given a few years of cleaning up and putting it's house in order it's got to be a net economic advantage for Manticore. Yes it doesn't have the very latest high tech stuff Manticore had; but it seems to have a better general tech base and industry than the Talbott Quadrant did prior to its annexation.

If they could afford lots of manticore manufactured goods they clearly would be a net economic benefit. They obviously produced something that people wanted and were willing to pay for. The problem is that right now manticore has none to sell, or money to buy anything from them, and they are way on the back burner for development once that become possible to do.

But they can now sell those Silesian goods, whatever they were, into Haven's newly opened markets; plus others along the Verge. That keeps the Silesian economy going (not to mention keep some Manticoran freighters in business). Then turn around and tax that economy for revenue and then order whatever materials, machines, or whathave you that Silesia can produce that help toward rebuilding Manticore's industry and shipyards.

Will it be everything they need, of course not. But there have to be plenty of things various Silesian protectorate planets produce that are sufficient for the non-cutting edge parts of stations, yards, and factories.

So, Manticore has lost 99% of it's manufacturing ability, 90+% of it's non-planet based manufacturing population including essentilay all the senior experienced admin and techical people.

And they are going to be back in business of building Manti-tech state of the art warships and TWO space stations for each of the three habitatal planets for the Manticore System in TWO YEARS. Not so clear how fast they can replace the public sector manufacturing plus import/export.

Humm. Wonderfull thing that money can replace all of that so fast. Too bad Manticore is probably going to have to depend on Haven, Beowulf and a couple other places to be thier tecnical workforce for perhaps the next 15 plus years until they can grow and train existing and new (as in recently born) citizens in all those work and scientifc and management skills to start to take over. Not going to be able to depend of present skill sets from current military sector- they are fighting a war or two, one of which is with the SL. Don't have a lot of "slack" in the private sector, they have spent 20 years pulling both young people, existing working adults and "retired" people with all those same skill sets (mature and in training) from the civilian population for the ongoing war as spacers to man and command the Navy plus manufacture what has been needed.

From a certain perspective you could imagine Manticore is in a similar position to Britian at the end of WW II. They won the war. In this case with Haven. But the population has been severely reduced (again, remember the losses in WW I), their trade is smashed (at least Manticore has all those idle merchant shipping and didn't have the majority of it's former capasity sunk in the wars. Manufacturing is devastated. They have all those existing debts and are going to have to borrow/mortgage right up to their teeth to start replacing the manufactring base. Unless they are able to recover domestic capacity for military, domestic and export production, they are going to drown in that sea of debt. The System economy is devastated from the losses both in terms of people (and their earnings) and ability to make stuff even for local consumption. The government now has essentially one source of actual income- in this case the Junction Fees and related charges. And they now have another war- for Manticore, two phased- the SL and the MA.
Ok.....lets all pull together with National Spirit and defend the Empire while avoiding becoming a clent state of our former enemy (Haven) and drowned under the weight of the crappy but massive SL.

Sigh.

You guys are overlooking several things, like the fact that not all orbital stations were likely destroyed. Hephaestus and Vulcan were but what about smaller stations like Aslan station (Ruthless) which orbits Manticore. We also don't know what happened to any privately owned stations, operated by companies like Haumptman and Dempsey. We do know that Haumptman owned several station in the Unicorn belt. Also IIRC Grayson was building at least three orbital shipyards in orbit in FoD.

saber964 wrote:You guys are overlooking several things, like the fact that not all orbital stations were likely destroyed. Hephaestus and Vulcan were but what about smaller stations like Aslan station (Ruthless) which orbits Manticore. We also don't know what happened to any privately owned stations, operated by companies like Haumptman and Dempsey. We do know that Haumptman owned several station in the Unicorn belt. Also IIRC Grayson was building at least three orbital shipyards in orbit in FoD.

All stations orbiting Manticore, Sphinx, and Gryphon were destroyed, both military and private. And all shipyards were destroyed, in both Manticore System and Yeltsin's Star System, everywhere in the systems. David has confirmed it. Hauptman did own minining facilities in the Unicorn Belt, but all his manufacturing facilities were in orbit of the planets. They were all destroyed. There are still stations out in the asteroid belts, but they are not manufacturing stations.

Would not the Manticoran government have squirreled away a few years economic cushion? Emergency funds? And what of the Queen's personal purse?

Also, there exists the Andermani yards. I am sure the Andies would be honored to assist. After all, if the GA is overcome by the League, they're sure to follow.

Also, in liberating Solarian city states there will be a rich pool of fresh new technicians and bodies.

And I think Manticore's economical strength is being overlooked. I asked a few posts ago about the strength of the Manticoran dollar. I am willing to bet that it was and remains the strongest currency in the Honorverse.

Who else in the 'Verse has a stronger economy even now? It isn't so much that their industry has been shattered, it's the perception of the Manty dollar. People, businesses, governments still want to invest. Need to invest. And it is the perception of the more likely payoff that draws investment. Tell me one other polity that is more appealing as a long term investment than Manticore. And Manticore has much to offer in the way of incentives and stocks!

saber964 wrote:You guys are overlooking several things, like the fact that not all orbital stations were likely destroyed. Hephaestus and Vulcan were but what about smaller stations like Aslan station (Ruthless) which orbits Manticore. We also don't know what happened to any privately owned stations, operated by companies like Haumptman and Dempsey. We do know that Haumptman owned several station in the Unicorn belt. Also IIRC Grayson was building at least three orbital shipyards in orbit in FoD.

You missed something rather dramatic. Hapeastus etc is privately, Hauptman, Dempsey etc, owned and owned by Manticore military side. They were mixed together and why it was such a devastating raid. Both the military side AND the commercial side both got demolished together.

Relax wrote: Both the military side AND the commercial side both got demolished together.

Which not only blew up the manufacturing facilities and the skilled workers who both ran the machines and designed the equipment, it also blew up the 3 largest and most important fleet bases, along with the trained repair techs, spare parts and ordinance stockpiles. The fact that the RMN mostly doesn't act like this is a problem is a plot issue that annoys me every so often.

kzt wrote: The fact that the RMN mostly doesn't act like this is a problem is a plot issue that annoys me every so often.

Say it aint so!

Relax wrote: Say it aint so!

I'm deeply touched by your concern.

kzt wrote:

Relax wrote: Both the military side AND the commercial side both got demolished together.

Which not only blew up the manufacturing facilities and the skilled workers who both ran the machines and designed the equipment, it also blew up the 3 largest and most important fleet bases, along with the trained repair techs, spare parts and ordinance stockpiles. The fact that the RMN mostly doesn't act like this is a problem is a plot issue that annoys me every so often.

Functionally everybody who was on Wayland? - the one orbiting Gryphon - was dirtside. Just the CO, some of his staff, and an inspection team to see how the crews (especially the R&D sections) handled their evac protocols.

That's a decent chunk of construction personnel. There's probably also the personnel captured when the Peeps took out Grendlesbane in Thunderbolt. The crews constructing the forts at the Lynx Terminus. All the personnel at the various fleet bases, Hancock, Sidemore, Trevor's Star, etc. The people at Basilisk.


Yes, the amount of damage to the physical infrastructure is stupid-lots. How functionally the entire manufacturing infrastructure of a major system was in three stations is mindboggling.
The personnel losses are huge, but roughly a third of the total were dirtside on Gryphon or stationed elsewhere.