new/old dead horse, futher beating requested

Weird Harold wrote:

Theemile wrote:While your points are all valid, they point back to the previous premise - do you even want to be giving Masada the SD to begin with?

Who ever suggested giving Masada a modern warship? Even The People's Republic wasn't that stupid -- the fact that Masada stole the ship from its real crew was unanticipated.

Manticore has been a bit more discriminating when doling out Military Assistance and with the exception of Erewhon has a spotless record of choosing wisely in how much assistance to provide -- whether materiel, training or personnel

Well KZT did - in theory.

I'm not saying we should give Masada a SD, but that any verge polity could possibly become a Masada-like player WITH an SD. Remember, Manticore seriously considered allying itself with Masada before it started to understand the truth about the religion and fanatic war with Grayson.

Power goes to people's heads and sometimes nations have a long standing grudge that is not easily observed. Or a warhawk leader comes to power in a few years - the list of possible senarios is as long as my legs and I'm 6'3". Giving out fully armed and operational SDs to verge systems potentially has as many problems as handing out speed at halloween

Theemile wrote:I'm not saying we should give Masada a SD, but that any verge polity could possibly become a Masada-like player WITH an SD. Remember, Manticore seriously considered allying itself with Masada before it started to understand the truth about the religion and fanatic war with Grayson.

The SLN has more SDs than anyone and will shortly be a Navy without a country. But I wouldn't expect anyone to give away a SD. Far more likely, anyone surviving with an SLN SD will find a likely system in need of a Navy and volunteer -- or else. There are going to be conquistadors and warlords with one or more SDs around. I don't expect the Grand Alliance or Manticore to contribute to their Navy with a military assistance/mutual defense treaty, though.

The thing to remember is that while Manticore explored the possibility of recruiting Masada into the original Manticore Alliance, in the end, they recognized the problem and conquered Masada instead.

Hi TheEmile,

Taking out the hyper generator or decommissioning it for the scarecrows in the TQ makes sense for at least the next year or two, but given the RMN training presence on board along with all the loyal TQG being trained etc, unauthorized cruises are unlikely.

RFC has some ulterior reason for capturing so many BF SD's; speculating what it is has occupied our attention since MoH or more than 4 years now.

It may be simply scrapping them is the most powerful way to demonstrate their worthlessness to the GA to the rest of the galaxy, but they are still quite valuable to the rest of the galaxy, if they don't have to face the GA etc.

Please continue to feel free to speculate further on their other uses.

L

Theemile wrote:

kzt wrote:You are supplying ships to places without a real Navy. They don't have a large supply of competent trained and experienced commanders.

Consider how Honor of the Queen works if Masada had been given a SD? How would that have worked out for Fearless? Ok, consider how it would have worked if Masada had four DDs and two CLs, all commanded by the same quality of CO as the BC. Do you think there is any question that Fearless would have ground them to dust and taken minimal damage in the process?

It takes much more skill to operate a fleet than to operate separate ships, and there is a LOT more margin for error with really tough ships than with glass cannons.

While your points are all valid, they point back to the previous premise - do you even want to be giving Masada the SD to begin with? It is, obviously, capable of going on a rampage all by itself and running over pretty much anyone else in the verge's home-grown naval force - and oour focus is agression deterrants, not creation.

If I were the one to give them away, I would pretty much have to stipulate that any SD so given has it's hyperdrive removed the moment it hits it's destination system. It would deter said system from going conquistadore and keep it from walking if someone tries to steal it.

Weird Harold wrote:

Theemile wrote:While your points are all valid, they point back to the previous premise - do you even want to be giving Masada the SD to begin with?

Who ever suggested giving Masada a modern warship? Even The People's Republic wasn't that stupid -- the fact that Masada stole the ship from its real crew was unanticipated.

Manticore has been a bit more discriminating when doling out Military Assistance and with the exception of Erewhon has a spotless record of choosing wisely in how much assistance to provide -- whether materiel, training or personnel

Actually, Haven did give them a modern warship. Technically, it wasn't a gift; Masada paid for it, but at scrap prices. It belonged to Masada, and a majority of the crew were Masadan. Masada didn't steal the ship, because it was already officially theirs. The crew did mutiny, since Yu was officially captain, but ownership of the ship did not change, technically. Part of the deal between Haven and Masada was that Masada would keep the ship.

lyonheart wrote:Hi TheEmile,

Taking out the hyper generator or decommissioning it for the scarecrows in the TQ makes sense for at least the next year or two, but given the RMN training presence on board along with all the loyal TQG being trained etc, unauthorized cruises are unlikely.

RFC has some ulterior reason for capturing so many BF SD's; speculating what it is has occupied our attention since MoH or more than 4 years now.

It may be simply scrapping them is the most powerful way to demonstrate their worthlessness to the GA to the rest of the galaxy, but they are still quite valuable to the rest of the galaxy, if they don't have to face the GA etc.

Please continue to feel free to speculate further on their other uses.

L

Hi Phil - I was actually talking about gifting (or as it sits - not-gifting) ex-SLN SDs to liberated verge systems.

The TQ is probably going to have to make due with LAC wings. But if they are given SDs - they would be old Manticorian designs before ex-SLN equipment was used. But as you said, there would probably be a cadre of old RMN hands on board teaching, so their use would be trusted and the ships should still have hyperdrives.

As for RFC's motives - I think he does it just to see what weird things we will come up with...

SWM wrote:Technically, it wasn't a gift; ...

If that threadbare figleaf is convincing to you, I've got a lot of bottom land and a few bridges for sale.

Weird Harold wrote:

SWM wrote:Technically, it wasn't a gift; ...

If that threadbare figleaf is convincing to you, I've got a lot of bottom land and a few bridges for sale.

I agree that the "purchase" was a fig leaf--the text makes plain that everyone knows this was essentially a gift. Masada couldn't have afforded to buy such a ship with their entire GDP. Which is why the sentence immediately before this said, "Actually, Haven did give them a modern warship."

But you are the one who asked "Who ever suggested giving Masada a modern warship? Even The People's Republic wasn't that stupid." The People's Republic did give them a modern (at the time) warship. It wasn't a loan--Masada was going to keep the ship.

SWM wrote:The People's Republic did give them a modern (at the time) warship. It wasn't a loan--Masada was going to keep the ship.

It was more of a loan than a gift. I very much doubt that Haven ever intended the ship to be out of the control of its Havenite crew, no matter how long it remained in Masada colors.

Weird Harold wrote:

SWM wrote:The People's Republic did give them a modern (at the time) warship. It wasn't a loan--Masada was going to keep the ship.

It was more of a loan than a gift. I very much doubt that Haven ever intended the ship to be out of the control of its Havenite crew, no matter how long it remained in Masada colors.

Most likely Haven intended to conquer Masada long term. They were in talks to have a fleet presence in the system as a knife against Manticore's throat. It's a short step from fleet in orbit to Marines on Ground. And 1 Friendly BC isn't going to turn the table against 5 SD squadrons.

Weird Harold wrote:

SWM wrote:The People's Republic did give them a modern (at the time) warship. It wasn't a loan--Masada was going to keep the ship.

It was more of a loan than a gift. I very much doubt that Haven ever intended the ship to be out of the control of its Havenite crew, no matter how long it remained in Masada colors.

Oh, I agree that Haven didn't intend for the ship to be out of Havenite control until the mission was over. But I don't think the Havenite crew was intended to stay there forever. After the Havenite crew left, the battlecruiser would have been left with the Masadans. It was a gift, not a loan.