The Problem with Haven

Amaroq wrote:

runsforcelery wrote:
(d) Although Eloise was aware that Shannon Foraker and Bolthole were producing an entirely new fleet which was much closer to the Royal Manticoran Navy in combat capability, she was also aware through most of the negotiating period that Manticore possessed the technological upper hand and that the completion of ships already under construction at places like Grendelsbane could quickly counterbalance much of the numerical superiority the RHN was building up at Bolthole. In other words, whatever High Ridge and Janacek had done to the Navy, the RMN remained a technologically superior threat with the capacity to rebound rapidly from its numerical inferiority once it realized that inferiority existed.

I hadn't considered the Grendelsbane construction when determining Manticore's striking capability. How close to actual deployment were those ships?

Various completion states, but all really being held up more by administration foot dragging more than construction limits. In a re-activation push some of them could probably have been out of the yard in a month to 6 weeks, and all of them within 6 months or less.

dreamrider

Amaroq wrote:

runsforcelery wrote:
(d) Although Eloise was aware that Shannon Foraker and Bolthole were producing an entirely new fleet which was much closer to the Royal Manticoran Navy in combat capability, she was also aware through most of the negotiating period that Manticore possessed the technological upper hand and that the completion of ships already under construction at places like Grendelsbane could quickly counterbalance much of the numerical superiority the RHN was building up at Bolthole. In other words, whatever High Ridge and Janacek had done to the Navy, the RMN remained a technologically superior threat with the capacity to rebound rapidly from its numerical inferiority once it realized that inferiority existed.

I hadn't considered the Grendelsbane construction when determining Manticore's striking capability. How close to actual deployment were those ships?

I think some of them were mere weeks away from being ready for their test runs.

It is true that Manticore's navy had been downsized during the ceasefire. But it had all of those unfinished modern sdps at Grendelsbane and could have upgraded themselves quite quickly.

Theisman was worried that Manticore would do something stupid like a preemptive strike on Haven's new navy which was one reason that he kept it secret so long.

And guess what? Once Haven's modern warships were announced, what did Janecek do? In a cabinet level meeting he proposed something stupid... like a pre-emptive strike against Haven's new navy. He was over-ruled by the cabinet, but the proposal was made. Theisman was right to be worried and to conceal his fleet until it had sufficient numbers to manage Manticore's potential reaction.

runsforcelery wrote:
(e) There was no peace treaty. The two star nations were still legally in a state of war, which meant that either side was fully justified in resuming hostilities in the absence of genuine efforts to secure that final peace treaty.

That’s an interesting point. Is there a counterpoint to a de facto state of war like a de facto state of peace? If there’s been a long amount of time without any outright hostilities does the state of war somewhat lapse? Continuing in this vein, is Haven even in a de jure state of war with Manticore? I remember reading that Haven (under the Legislaturalists) never officially declared war on any of the systems they attacked. My impression is that the war with Manticore was picked up by each succeeding regime from the CPS to the restored Republic but was still never officially “voted out”. I was wondering if I missed a reference anywhere to the state of war between the two nations being made official at Haven’s end. I’m only focusing on this point because of the debate on whether Thunderbolt was justified and/or dishonorable. If Haven was never in a de jure state of war with Manticore but just in a de facto one then the justification of resuming hostilities because the two nations were still legally in a state of war is a little weakened. However, even if Haven never made anything official concerning the war with Manticore does it matter? Does a de facto state of war essentially become official after a certain amount of time?

Dark Enigma wrote:

So what? Haven lost their systems in fair combat. Manticore was under no obligation to return any territory it won to Haven. Do you think Haven ever returned its conquests back to their own governments? It is all well and good for Pritchart to review her military options, but is it honorable to actually use the military option when Manticore was not an imminent threat?

My response:

Well, if you are going to say that Manticore won a right to those systems in "fair combat," then it would seem that it would be ok for the Republic to boot Manticore out of its occupied systems with "fair combat." Turn about is fair play, after all.

As for the rest of your comment, I think that RFC has adequately addressed it, eliminating the need for me to do so.

Don

hanuman wrote:

MaxxQ wrote:Duckkhammer sounds better. Duckk-mobile sounds like something you hang in a baby's crib.

MaxxQ, I was thinking more of the duckmobile from Duck Tails - you know, whenever it appears, it's bad news for the baddies.

But I like 'Duckkhammer' a lot too. Maybe a whole arsenal of different Duckk-derived weapons and weapons platforms?

Btw, I have a question. I read elsewhere that Mr Weber is planning another spin-off series and you commented on it. Can you tell me more, please? I haven't read any news about such a series and I'm curious...

The Hammer That Smashes Suns? (or, The Duckk Hammer That Smashes Suns)

[running for the exit]
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Life without cats is just too boring.

Amaroq wrote:

runsforcelery wrote:
(e) There was no peace treaty. The two star nations were still legally in a state of war, which meant that either side was fully justified in resuming hostilities in the absence of genuine efforts to secure that final peace treaty.

That’s an interesting point. Is there a counterpoint to a de facto state of war like a de facto state of peace? If there’s been a long amount of time without any outright hostilities does the state of war somewhat lapse? Continuing in this vein, is Haven even in a de jure state of war with Manticore? I remember reading that Haven (under the Legislaturalists) never officially declared war on any of the systems they attacked. My impression is that the war with Manticore was picked up by each succeeding regime from the CPS to the restored Republic but was still never officially “voted out”. I was wondering if I missed a reference anywhere to the state of war between the two nations being made official at Haven’s end. I’m only focusing on this point because of the debate on whether Thunderbolt was justified and/or dishonorable. If Haven was never in a de jure state of war with Manticore but just in a de facto one then the justification of resuming hostilities because the two nations were still legally in a state of war is a little weakened. However, even if Haven never made anything official concerning the war with Manticore does it matter? Does a de facto state of war essentially become official after a certain amount of time?

Manticore declared war on Haven with all proper procedure, so even if Haven never reciprocated, there was still a legal state of war under interstellar law. Since it was not resolved, the war remained in effect. Queen Elizabeth has done the something similar with the Sollies, stating that as a result of repeated unilateral acts of war BY the ISLN there is now a de facto state of war. Whether that satisfies the requirements of interstellar law is not clear, but since there's nobody tough enough to argue about it the point is kind of moot.
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If a business tries something and it doesn't work, they have to stop doing it or go broke. If the government tries something and it doesn't work, they will keep shoveling our money into it forever.

Imaginos1892 wrote:The Hammer That Smashes Suns? (or, The Duckk Hammer That Smashes Suns)

[running for the exit]
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Life without cats is just too boring.

The Death Quack? Like in the Deathray?

Hold on, I'm coming too...

hanuman wrote:

MaxxQ wrote:Duckkhammer sounds better. Duckk-mobile sounds like something you hang in a baby's crib.

MaxxQ, I was thinking more of the duckmobile from Duck Tails - you know, whenever it appears, it's bad news for the baddies.

But I like 'Duckkhammer' a lot too. Maybe a whole arsenal of different Duckk-derived weapons and weapons platforms?

Btw, I have a question. I read elsewhere that Mr Weber is planning another spin-off series and you commented on it. Can you tell me more, please? I haven't read any news about such a series and I'm curious...

Are you talking about the upcoming Manticore Ascendant Travis Long series, or another new spin off series?

Amaroq, international law as it currently stands (which mostly refer to historical convention rather than actual law, in this case) does not require both combatants to declare war on each other. I'd imagine that the same would be true of interstellar law in the Honorverse. Manticore had, in fact, declared war on Haven after the initial Havenite attacks at Yeltsin and Hancock.

International law does require a formal peace treaty to officially end a state of war, and again, I don't imagine that that requirement would have changed in the Honorverse.

I'd imagine that a de facto war, in which neither combatant had declared war formally, is still regarded as an actual war and would require a formal peace treaty to come to an official end. The war between Ethiopia and Eritrea a few years back comes to mind. Neither of the combatants actually declared war against their opponents, but at the conclusion of hostilities they did sign formal peace treaties.