Most hated character

roseandheather wrote:
Her not voting for the death penalty had nothing to do with political pressure and everything to do with her own personal convictions. As someone who is against the death penalty - in any circumstances - I sympathise completely with her. She voted with her conscience, not to anyone's political pressure, be it White Haven's or North Hollow's. And that takes far more courage than simply switching sides. She knew very well that she'd be disliked by the pro-Honor faction for not voting for the death penalty, and disliked by the pro-Young faction for voting to have him cashiered. That's the kind of thing someone can only do when ruled by their conscience, not politics.

I tend to disagree with this. She voted the 'party line' of not guilty throughout the trial and my reading of it was that that was a political division.

I think her politics was the reason for the not guilty vote throughout but when it came down to it her personal convictions wouldn't allow her to let Young off the hook with no punishment.

That's how I read it anyway. She knew full well that Young was guilty on all counts including the capital charges, voted to save his life for political reasons but couldn't stomach allowing him to stay in her navy for personal/professional reasons.

And I doubt High Ridge supporters would hate on her for her call - she saved his life after all, plus there's no indication that I noticed that it hurt her career at all.

Edit: for one more quote and comment

Right. Because knowing someone is guilty and wanting them to be duly punished - as Sonja did - automatically has to equate to wanting them to suffer the death penalty.

What she wants should have absolutely no bearing on her decision. The punishment for the crime should have no bearing on her decision. She's supposed to have a simple yes/no answer on the question "Is Pavel Young guilty of desertion / cowardice?" because that's her job.

Uroboros wrote:I think it's also very telling that while he has received report after report about Manticore's activities and increasing hostility, he's shown little to no particular worry about Manticore taking those Verge systems and reporting what they've found.

I'm not talking about all that. I'm talking about the direct assaults against Manticoran held systems that resulted in the deaths of millions of Solarian naval personnel. Although, now that you mention the Verge, his actual body count is probably into the billions.

You said it yourself, he's playing his game and is only concerned about holding on to power. Even knowing that a lot of people were going to get killed with no morally justifiable reason other than his own selfish desires, he ordered those assaults. Name the worse mass murdering dictators in our history and the deaths they're held responsible for, and I will point you to policy decisions aimed only at grabbing/keeping power. The actual execution was left to underlings, but the people ultimately in charge are ultimately responsible.

Kolokoltsov is firmly into the-most-horrific-execution-you-can-think-of territory.

Uroboros wrote:I think it's also very telling that while he has received report after report about Manticore's activities and increasing hostility, he's shown little to no particular worry about Manticore taking those Verge systems and reporting what they've found. Given the absolute shit storm which is going on, I think he'd be more than a little worried about the little kingdoms, complete with serfs, that have been set up in the middle of the utterly democratic and benevolent League.

I don't know what you are talking about here. What Verge systems are you talking about? Until Admiral Henke entered the Meyers sector, Manticore hadn't taken over any Verge systems. And Henke didn't report anything about that publicly, and there hasn't been any time for reports about Meyers to get back to Sol. So what Verge systems and reports are you talking about?

Regarding Hemphill, the war declaration depended on Young surviving his court martial. If he had been executed, no matter how justly, his father would have pulled every single file in his inventory and tried to destroy the Cromarty Government.

I think that's why Hemphill refused to swing the vote on the capital offences. She certainly had no idea North Hollow would drop dead at the conclusion of the trial. Recusing herself provides a 50-50 chance of either a conviction or acquittal and if the former occurred, the war effort would be damaged further.

Hemphill probably would have accepted an acquittal as early as possible and in the big picture, she had a point. Until the Young trial concluded, offensives couldn't be carried out. White Haven and Kuzak sitting on their asses worrying about the trial and politics instead of driving for Trevor's Star.

Being deadlocked with nobody budging an inch, she made a compromise she thought North Hollow could live with. She was wrong, but ultimately, she probably saved the Cromarty Government a great deal of trouble and freed the Admiralty to fight.

SWM wrote:

Uroboros wrote:I think it's also very telling that while he has received report after report about Manticore's activities and increasing hostility, he's shown little to no particular worry about Manticore taking those Verge systems and reporting what they've found. Given the absolute shit storm which is going on, I think he'd be more than a little worried about the little kingdoms, complete with serfs, that have been set up in the middle of the utterly democratic and benevolent League.

I don't know what you are talking about here. What Verge systems are you talking about? Until Admiral Henke entered the Meyers sector, Manticore hadn't taken over any Verge systems. And Henke didn't report anything about that publicly, and there hasn't been any time for reports about Meyers to get back to Sol. So what Verge systems and reports are you talking about?

Not that they had taken over yet, but the possibility that Manticore would take over those systems and report on the conditions they found. If they were fully aware of what was going on in their house, I think they would have been a little worried about the possibility.

(Apologies if it wasn't clear. I wrote this late at night and then didn't edit.)

Uroboros wrote:Not that they had taken over yet, but the possibility that Manticore would take over those systems and report on the conditions they found. If they were fully aware of what was going on in their house, I think they would have been a little worried about the possibility.

(Apologies if it wasn't clear. I wrote this late at night and then didn't edit.)

Ah, I understand what you mean now.

If I were Kolokoltsov, I don't think I would be very worried about that, either. Or rather, not nearly as worried as about all the other problems Manticore was already causing. First of all, I'm sure Kolokoltsov doesn't know everything that is going on in the Verge, and he likes it that way. And any reports that come in can be spun just as easily as all the other reports from those barbarian Manticorans. Things going on way out in the Verge aren't any more real to him than to any other Solarian, despite his greater information. What Kolokoltsov has to worry about are the very real effects that Manticore is starting to have on the member worlds themselves.

Uroboros wrote:I think it's also very telling that while he has received report after report about Manticore's activities and increasing hostility, he's shown little to no particular worry about Manticore taking those Verge systems and reporting what they've found. Given the absolute shit storm which is going on, I think he'd be more than a little worried about the little kingdoms, complete with serfs, that have been set up in the middle of the utterly democratic and benevolent League.

SWM wrote:I don't know what you are talking about here. What Verge systems are you talking about? Until Admiral Henke entered the Meyers sector, Manticore hadn't taken over any Verge systems. And Henke didn't report anything about that publicly, and there hasn't been any time for reports about Meyers to get back to Sol. So what Verge systems and reports are you talking about?

Uroboros wrote:Not that they had taken over yet, but the possibility that Manticore would take over those systems and report on the conditions they found. If they were fully aware of what was going on in their house, I think they would have been a little worried about the possibility.

(Apologies if it wasn't clear. I wrote this late at night and then didn't edit.)

Of course, once Aviars Terekov's report from Mobius gets out, there will be a start to that process, Uroboros.

SWM wrote:

Uroboros wrote:Not that they had taken over yet, but the possibility that Manticore would take over those systems and report on the conditions they found. If they were fully aware of what was going on in their house, I think they would have been a little worried about the possibility.

(Apologies if it wasn't clear. I wrote this late at night and then didn't edit.)

Ah, I understand what you mean now.

If I were Kolokoltsov, I don't think I would be very worried about that, either. Or rather, not nearly as worried as about all the other problems Manticore was already causing. First of all, I'm sure Kolokoltsov doesn't know everything that is going on in the Verge, and he likes it that way. And any reports that come in can be spun just as easily as all the other reports from those barbarian Manticorans. Things going on way out in the Verge aren't any more real to him than to any other Solarian, despite his greater information. What Kolokoltsov has to worry about are the very real effects that Manticore is starting to have on the member worlds themselves.

I'm fairly sure he doesn't know anything specific about what's going on. He might know a few systems have to be occasionally suppressed here and there, but the absolute oppression? I doubt it highly. I think he's in the dark. After all, they're all paying their dues, right? Everything must be a-ok! That's why we have Sector Governers, after all. For the little details.

I think the very system is honestly to blame for the idiocy coming out of the League, not just one individual or group. Nothing's held accountable. Zero oversight. And, everyone who works for it has a share of the blame. Nobody even talks to each other. You saw how shocked the Mandarins were when Kingsford briefed them on the operational realities they faced after Rampajet shot himself. They had not a single clue.

They keep operating like each arm is independent of the body. It's insane to think how long this government's lasted like this, especially with all the corruption and graft. And everyone's in on it.

Is english a second language for you?
I understand exactly what she did.
She VIOLATED HER SWORN OATH. TWICE.
This is someone you hold up for adoration?
I will also point out she is an accessory to murder before the fact.
A real lovable person.
Honestly, White Havens appointment of her to run the RMN's
R&D programs causes me to have some doubts about him as well.
You have someone who KNOWINGLY and WILLING twice breaches the trust of an organization she volunteered to join.
And then you turn around and put the future of your weapons and ship developement , the very things that have kept your kingdom alive, in the hands of someone you KNOW will cave if the price is right.
I begin to think the SEM's next major problem will not come from an external threat - it will come from within.

roseandheather wrote:
....are you a troll? Or just massively, massively ignorant? You do realise that Sonja Hemphill is a genius, right?

Look, I will be the first to admit that Soni lacks a little in what might be called the social graces. She's a tech weenie with her head buried so far inside an engineering manual that she's almost forgotten how to deal with people who aren't as much of a weenie as she is.

But she's also a more-than-competent fleet commander with a gift for envisioning military strategy beyond the limits of current technology. She gets over-enthusiastic about her pet projects, sure, but her overriding concern is, and always has been, the effectiveness of the Royal Manticoran Navy, and she will acknowledge when she's wrong. She's not usually happy about being wrong - geniuses rarely are - but she does acknowledge it, and she does learn from her mistakes.

Or are you still stuck in On Basilisk Station? Because that's really the only scenario I can envision where you could possibly believe that Sonja Hemphill is a political admiral.

[/quote]

...you do realise she went against political pressure to vote for Young's discharge, right? If she was really the political admiral you claim, she'd have voted to acquit. She voted with her own convictions despite considerable pressure for her not to do so.

I suggest you re-read the passage you attempt to refer me to, because you clearly haven't a clue why she did what she did.[/quote]

exiledtoIA wrote:Is english a second language for you?
I understand exactly what she did.
She VIOLATED HER SWORN OATH. TWICE.
This is someone you hold up for adoration?
I will also point out she is an accessory to murder before the fact.
A real lovable person.
Honestly, White Havens appointment of her to run the RMN's
R&D programs causes me to have some doubts about him as well.
You have someone who KNOWINGLY and WILLING twice breaches the trust of an organization she volunteered to join.
And then you turn around and put the future of your weapons and ship developement , the very things that have kept your kingdom alive, in the hands of someone you KNOW will cave if the price is right.
I begin to think the SEM's next major problem will not come from an external threat - it will come from within.

...wow. Your reading comprehension is even worse than I thought. You really are just pulling crap out of your arse now, aren't you?