Excusez-moi

Thinksmarkedly wrote:I'd expect the original to be retroactively referred to as "A" or "Alpha" after the second one came along. Or just not at all - we heard some of that when the new COVID-19 strains started showing up, were given Greek letter names, but the original wasn't.

penny wrote:Same thing I was thinking, hence, my naming convention.

But then...



alpha male
noun
1. The dominant male in a group of animals.
2. A large and muscular dominating, controlling, protecting, successful, and leading man.

I also wonder if the MA's Alpha is built upon the base model, which is bereft of the beta afterthought enhancement. If the MA perfected what the beta started, I'd wager they needed to start with a fresh slate.

Also, I don't think we can bank on the MA's mods to concentrate on a specific ingredient... Intelligence, muscle mass, etc. But then, the MA seems to specifically advertise their IQ advancement, superiority.

P.S. It could be as simple as the author not wanting to confuse us. Well, if so, he failed. LOL

The funny thing is that the scientist, who introduced the concept of "alpha" leader in wolf society (which has since spread into more general usage), has since been trying to eliminate the term. The problem was that some of his studies were done on wolves in zoos (as I understand it), while wolves in the wild are a family group ruled by the parents.

Note also that the Alpha Band in hyperspace is inferior to all the other bands, being only superior to normal space.

.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:

Jonathan_S wrote:Okay, more seriously they probably did use Greek letter suffixes on all of them. But we don't know whether there one that was considered the base and given no suffix, or if all four had suffixes [A, B, C, or D].

I'd expect the original to be retroactively referred to as "A" or "Alpha" after the second one came along. Or just not at all - we heard some of that when the new COVID-19 strains started showing up, were given Greek letter names, but the original wasn't.

Quite likely.
But this still presumes there was a baser version that was then upgrade/modified several times.

All we know from the text is all four were under the same project.

Given that these were reportedly the first heavy world mods it's somewhat possible that they wanted redundancy and diversity in the mods in case one turned out to be more long term suitable to the planet (and in case one approach failed to pan out in time for the colonization expedition). To get that they might have split the project's genetics into four teams [Alpha - Delta] each with the goal to independently develop genetic mods meeting a basic set of heavy-grav requirements but with some freedom in terms of how, or the best trade-offs, or the best extra features.
If so the the Beta mods could simply the package independently developed by team Beta -- and not be especially related to the other 3 (other than all 4 being developed against similar goals).

That's be a huge amount of extra work; and presumably slower than throwing all the geneticists at a base version and then iterating a couple of variants; so they probably didn't do independent parallel development. But I can't 100% rule it out as there is some logic to the idea; and it was the very first time they were attempting something quite like this.

tlb wrote:

Jonathan_S wrote:We've no idea what the naming scheme was, just that there are four variants and one is called Beta. For all we know the 4 might be called Meyerdahl Two, Meyerdahl Beta, Meyerdahl ii, and Meyerdahl **

Okay, more seriously they probably did use Greek letter suffixes on all of them. But we don't know whether there one that was considered the base and given no suffix, or if all four had suffixes [A, B, C, or D].

ThinksMarkedly wrote:I'd expect the original to be retroactively referred to as "A" or "Alpha" after the second one came along. Or just not at all - we heard some of that when the new COVID-19 strains started showing up, were given Greek letter names, but the original wasn't.

Jonathan_S wrote:Quite likely.
But this still presumes there was a baser version that was then upgrade/modified several times.

All we know from the text is all four were under the same project.

Given that these were reportedly the first heavy world mods it's somewhat possible that they wanted redundancy and diversity in the mods in case one turned out to be more long term suitable to the planet (and in case one approach failed to pan out in time for the colonization expedition). To get that they might have split the project's genetics into four teams [Alpha - Delta] each with the goal to independently develop genetic mods meeting a basic set of heavy-grav requirements but with some freedom in terms of how, or the best trade-offs, or the best extra features.
If so the the Beta mods could simply the package independently developed by team Beta -- and not be especially related to the other 3 (other than all 4 being developed against similar goals).

That's be a huge amount of extra work; and presumably slower than throwing all the geneticists at a base version and then iterating a couple of variants; so they probably didn't do independent parallel development. But I can't 100% rule it out as there is some logic to the idea; and it was the very first time they were attempting something quite like this.

Why did you leave me in there, when you removed what little I had to say?

tlb wrote:Why did you leave me in there, when you removed what little I had to say?

Bad editing. Sorry about that.
Following by not rereading after posting to realize I'd accidently trimmed your text along with the overly nested wiki quote I was trying to remove.

But upon reflection I realized I was mostly responding to ThinksMarkedly; so I edited the quote portion of my post to be a direct response to his older post that you'd been responding to.

tlb wrote:Why did you leave me in there, when you removed what little I had to say?

Jonathan_S wrote:Bad editing. Sorry about that.
Following by not rereading after posting to realize I'd accidently trimmed your text along with the overly nested wiki quote I was trying to remove.

But upon reflection I realized I was mostly responding to ThinksMarkedly; so I edited the quote portion of my post to be a direct response to his older post that you'd been responding to.

It's okay; I was not upset, just confused.

Disclaimer: Whether I am right or wrong, I can offer an explanation that could tie everything together.

The MA has endeavored to create the perfect product touting an IQ above all else as the main ingredient across the board. This has led to chasing that goal in increments throughout the life of the Alphas in the Inner Onion. But the MA has always taken their research on the lower lines (B C D ...) and literally utilized them as guinea pigs and passed their successes UP the line. Thus, the amalgamation of B C D eventually became A, after the fact.

Since Honor's mod was the first to receive the IQ enhancement, the comment that she is a lost Alpha line could simply indicate that MA research is an offshoot or continuation of the Meyerdahl B enhancement. That would make Honor... wait for it ...

The mother of all phucking Alphas!

penny wrote:Since Honor's mod was the first to receive the IQ enhancement, the comment that she is a lost Alpha line could simply indicate that MA research is an offshoot or continuation of the Meyerdahl B enhancement. That would make Honor... wait for it ...

The mother of all phucking Alphas!

No, there's no evidence that the Meyerdahl mods were the first to receive IQ enhancement. All we know is that they were remarkably successful, without the side-effects that usually mark this type of enhancement. To me, this implies there were several attempts before and some may have been successful too.

Moreover, I really don't think the Meyerdahl mods are that relevant for the MAlign. When they did start sometime in the 1400s or 1500s, the mods were nearly 1000 years old. They must have formed part of the background starting positions, but I don't think that they were that contributive. Again, it's like claiming that Genghis Khan was my ancestor - it might be true, but how relevant is it?

penny wrote:Since Honor's mod was the first to receive the IQ enhancement, the comment that she is a lost Alpha line could simply indicate that MA research is an offshoot or continuation of the Meyerdahl B enhancement. That would make Honor... wait for it ...

The mother of all phucking Alphas!

ThinksMarkedly wrote:No, there's no evidence that the Meyerdahl mods were the first to receive IQ enhancement. All we know is that they were remarkably successful, without the side-effects that usually mark this type of enhancement. To me, this implies there were several attempts before and some may have been successful too.

Moreover, I really don't think the Meyerdahl mods are that relevant for the MAlign. When they did start sometime in the 1400s or 1500s, the mods were nearly 1000 years old. They must have formed part of the background starting positions, but I don't think that they were that contributive. Again, it's like claiming that Genghis Khan was my ancestor - it might be true, but how relevant is it?

However the Malign could have gained insight into successful modification from it and perhaps even named the Meyerdahl-B an Alpha line retroactively, even though they did not create it. But I expect they may have used it as a source.

PS: Except as a joke (note the LOL indication), this would NOT make Honor more than the Mother of a few Alphas (her own children), but mostly a far distance grand-daughter of them.

penny wrote:Since Honor's mod was the first to receive the IQ enhancement, the comment that she is a lost Alpha line could simply indicate that MA research is an offshoot or continuation of the Meyerdahl B enhancement. That would make Honor... wait for it ...

The mother of all phucking Alphas!

ThinksMarkedly wrote:No, there's no evidence that the Meyerdahl mods were the first to receive IQ enhancement. All we know is that they were remarkably successful, without the side-effects that usually mark this type of enhancement. To me, this implies there were several attempts before and some may have been successful too.

Moreover, I really don't think the Meyerdahl mods are that relevant for the MAlign. When they did start sometime in the 1400s or 1500s, the mods were nearly 1000 years old. They must have formed part of the background starting positions, but I don't think that they were that contributive. Again, it's like claiming that Genghis Khan was my ancestor - it might be true, but how relevant is it?

There probably is no evidence. And you might be correct, but let's reason this out in my head. The Harringtons are descended from Meyerdahl's First Wave of heavy grav mods. That was the first heavy grav mod. Honor is descended from the Betas. The IQ enhancement is said to assist colonists who settle predatory environments. Now, there might be another player in the game other than Meyerdahl who was making genies. But the Meyerdahl mods were the first heavy grav mods. That is a fact. If there is another player making genies, they were beaten to the punch making heavy grav genies. And heavy grav genies definitely benefited from the IQ enhancement. I agree, that is still not concrete proof.

So, there could have been genies bred for lower grav worlds as well; those below Earth's standard 1g. If they were bred for a higher gravity they were beaten to the punch receiving the IQ mod. Again, that's a fact.

So, what are the choices? Bred for higher gravity. Bred for lower gravity. Bred for normal gravities. Why would a normal g planet need mods? Unless!, this mod consists of the IQ enhancement only. If so, I'd wager that that mod -- a mod with a baseline IQ enhancement only -- is the mod which later became the Alphas. It's possible. Even plausible. But there is no evidence. We must also consider that Meyerdahl made mods for environments other than gravity dependent. For example, mods that were concerned with lower levels of oxygen, harsher climates, etc., and they could have been given the IQ mod first. But then, there is no evidence of a single adverse environment planet specifically settled with knowledge of those particular dangers. Grayson was an accident.

But the gist of my point that was missed is that Honor is without a doubt the first Beta with the IQ enhancement who is in the predatory jungle that is the navy!

My point is it does not matter whether Honor is the first to receive the IQ enhancement. She is the first in the navy to have received the IQ enhancement! The possible exception to that is the Wintons. So I must change that statement to Honor is the first IQ enhanced genie who is head over heels above the rest. We all discussed how creating Alphas will not guarantee their success in the navy; someone adept at formulating strategies and tactics. Honor is proven! She is the first! Betas become Alphas.

tlb wrote:However the Malign could have gained insight into successful modification from it and perhaps even named the Meyerdahl-B an Alpha line retroactively, even though they did not create it. But I expect they may have used it as a source.

PS: Except as a joke (note the LOL indication), this would NOT make Honor more than the Mother of a few Alphas (her own children), but mostly a far distance grand-daughter of them.

You missed the idiomatic reference which fits Honor like a glove.

the mother of all
idiom
—used to say that something is larger, better, worse, etc., than all other things of the same kind

It has been described as the mother of all construction projects.

—Jason Ma, Fortune, 5 Jan. 2025

-snip-

And that’s even before Donald Trump returning to the White House to unleash the mother of all trade wars.

WESTERN UNION: Telegram

When Honor hypers into Darius. STOP
She will be the mother of all phucking Alphas. STOP

penny wrote:But the gist of my point that was missed is that Honor is without a doubt the first Beta with the IQ enhancement who is in the predatory jungle that is the navy!

My point is it does not matter whether Honor is the first to receive the IQ enhancement. She is the first in the navy to have received the IQ enhancement!

-- skip --

When Honor hypers into Darius. STOP
She will be the mother of all phucking Alphas. STOP

Perhaps she WILL BE when Darius is found, but that is off in the future, your initial statement was that she IS now.

It is very unlikely that in all the years since Meyerdahl was settled, that Honor is the first Beta genie to have joined the navy (they probably have been members of various navies over the centuries). She is only the first Beta in the navy with a series of books written about her exploits.