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Uncompromising Honor, Snippet #11

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Re: Uncompromising Honor, Snippet #11
Post by cthia   » Wed Jul 25, 2018 11:37 am

cthia
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Bill Woods wrote:
runsforcelery wrote: “Estimate one hundred twenty thousand inbound,
Randomiser wrote:Wow. All of them? For a change, the Sollies are crippled by underconfidence.

Well, the Sollie commander is MAD at them for getting his freighters, I don't know if they could ship that many of them elsewhere without the freighters, and there may be an element of 'use them or lose them' with all these Manticoran missiles incoming.


But is "underconfident" fair? They've been bitten by arrogance every single time. Not once have they ever gotten through Manty defenses, and they certainly can't risk a wasted launch.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Uncompromising Honor, Snippet #11
Post by Bill Woods   » Wed Jul 25, 2018 12:46 pm

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runsforcelery wrote: “Estimate one hundred twenty thousand inbound,
Bill Woods wrote: Wow. All of them? For a change, the Sollies are crippled by underconfidence.
Randomiser wrote:Well, the Sollie commander is MAD at them for getting his freighters, I don't know if they could ship that many of them elsewhere without the freighters, ...
They unloaded them for the purpose of trashing the system's infrastructure; presumably they thought they needed that many. So he's choosing to abandon that mission (which is fine with me, of course).

... and there may be an element of 'use them or lose them' with all these Manticoran missiles incoming.
Hmm, point.
----
Imagined conversation:
Admiral [noting yet another Manty tech surprise]:
XO, what's the budget for the ONI?
Vice Admiral: I don't recall exactly, sir. Several billion quatloos.
Admiral: ... What do you suppose they did with all that money?
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Re: Uncompromising Honor, Snippet #11
Post by Bill Woods   » Wed Jul 25, 2018 12:56 pm

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cthia wrote:
runsforcelery wrote: “Estimate one hundred twenty thousand inbound,
Bill Woods wrote:Wow. All of them? For a change, the Sollies are crippled by underconfidence.

But is "underconfident" fair? They've been bitten by arrogance every single time. Not once have they ever gotten through Manty defenses, and they certainly can't risk a wasted launch.
Firing 13k missiles per target seems like a lot. I don't know if you've read the long excerpt, but in a previous section, another Barracuda TF commander declined to use even half that many.
“We have two options, Ma’am, either of which has pros and cons,” Rosiak replied. “One is to simply fire the biggest damned missile salvo the galaxy’s ever seen. I don’t care how good their defenses are on a ship-for-ship basis. Hit them with enough birds to completely saturate their counter-missiles and point defense, and something’s getting through. Assuming we’re right about the blind fire hit probabilities, my people estimate that a thirty thousand-missile launch should produce a minimum of four hundred hits, despite their defensive capabilities.”
...
“I realize we have deep pockets where missile pods are concerned,” she said then. “I’d really prefer not to use them up at the rate of five or six thousand per heavy cruiser, though,” she added in a desert-dry tone,
Though, in that situation, there was little chance of getting any hits, because the Manties had the option of going into hyperspace.
----
Imagined conversation:
Admiral [noting yet another Manty tech surprise]:
XO, what's the budget for the ONI?
Vice Admiral: I don't recall exactly, sir. Several billion quatloos.
Admiral: ... What do you suppose they did with all that money?
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Re: Uncompromising Honor, Snippet #11
Post by cthia   » Wed Jul 25, 2018 2:09 pm

cthia
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cthia wrote:
runsforcelery wrote: “Estimate one hundred twenty thousand inbound,
Bill Woods wrote:Wow. All of them? For a change, the Sollies are crippled by underconfidence.

But is "underconfident" fair? They've been bitten by arrogance every single time. Not once have they ever gotten through Manty defenses, and they certainly can't risk a wasted launch.
Bill Woods wrote:Firing 13k missiles per target seems like a lot. I don't know if you've read the long excerpt, but in a previous section, another Barracuda TF commander declined to use even half that many.
“We have two options, Ma’am, either of which has pros and cons,” Rosiak replied. “One is to simply fire the biggest damned missile salvo the galaxy’s ever seen. I don’t care how good their defenses are on a ship-for-ship basis. Hit them with enough birds to completely saturate their counter-missiles and point defense, and something’s getting through. Assuming we’re right about the blind fire hit probabilities, my people estimate that a thirty thousand-missile launch should produce a minimum of four hundred hits, despite their defensive capabilities.”
...
“I realize we have deep pockets where missile pods are concerned,” she said then. “I’d really prefer not to use them up at the rate of five or six thousand per heavy cruiser, though,” she added in a desert-dry tone,
Though, in that situation, there was little chance of getting any hits, because the Manties had the option of going into hyperspace.


Granted. It's an awful lot of missiles to sling at so few targets. But the Admiral's sentiment is ripe with lots of frustration and bad memories of dead comrades who had already passed the plateau of firing what they thought was a lot.

You're in a missile duel with the enemy and you sling a few hundred missiles at them per your doctrine and they beat them back. Then someone else slings a few thousand at them and they easily beat them back too. Then the enemy easily shrugs off the hellish number of missiles slung about in the Second Battle of Manticore. You come to a point where you're frustrated, frightened, anxious and more than a bit annoyed, as well as totally unsure about exactly how many missiles are needed to do the trick. This Admiral needs a win for the SLN, and in not knowing exactly how many missiles are needed to swamp their defenses he errs on the frustrated side of caution. Remember, the insane amount of missiles used in a launch has long been eclipsed in the eyes of the League. They're still reeling over several thousand being useless.

Let's be realistic, the Manties have been holding back the full extent of their tech's capabilities. And they are still doing so. The Manties have beaten back everything but the kitchen sink, so you hurl the sink at 'em too. Because 120k missiles is sure a sink of missiles.

This Admiral's sentiment matches Byng's, IMO, giving much respect. Byng fired on Chatterly's 3 Destroyers with their wedges down. Say what you will about Byng, but he had absolutely no problem appreciating Manty tech. Truth of the matter be told, Byng didn't harbor any misconceptions about Manty capabilities. And neither did Admiral Hadju. Heck, as far as Hadju knew, 120k missiles wouldn't do any thing but cripple the opponent leaving them battle capable. He needed to mission kill them! F**king pesky Manties.

The way things have panned out for the gorilla, Rosiak could have been spouting more arrogance in the previous engagement. Heck, the Manties are destroying ships of the wall with heavy cruisers. Which means they already requisition their hardware from God, or Tester.

Not saying I agree with his decision to fire the farm, I'm the one who wishes the SLN would send someone still not coloring by the numbers. I'm just saying I can understand the human frustration behind "See how they like that."

Edit: Hadju for Kotouc error caught by Louis R.

.
Last edited by cthia on Wed Jul 25, 2018 5:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Uncompromising Honor, Snippet #11
Post by JohnRoth   » Wed Jul 25, 2018 2:45 pm

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Bill Woods wrote:
runsforcelery wrote: “Estimate one hundred twenty thousand inbound,
Bill Woods wrote: Wow. All of them? For a change, the Sollies are crippled by underconfidence.
Randomiser wrote:Well, the Sollie commander is MAD at them for getting his freighters, I don't know if they could ship that many of them elsewhere without the freighters, ...
They unloaded them for the purpose of trashing the system's infrastructure; presumably they thought they needed that many. So he's choosing to abandon that mission (which is fine with me, of course).

... and there may be an element of 'use them or lose them' with all these Manticoran missiles incoming.
Hmm, point.


Exactly. Missile pods are fragile. The radiation from blowing up a couple of those battlecruisers will mission-kill any pods that are still around. Flushing the pods at the Manties is the only thing he can do.

He's not abandoning the mission. He's still got the missiles in his magazines. He won't get as much of the infrastructure as he planned, but he'll get some of it, and most likely the most important parts of it.
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Re: Uncompromising Honor, Snippet #11
Post by Louis R   » Wed Jul 25, 2018 3:06 pm

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Ummm... Kotouč is the Manty commander, actually, so he knows exactly what his capabilities are.

Byng had no appreciation of Manty tech whatsoever, and no interest in acquiring one, which is why a certain Solly tac officer managed to survive his displeasure. And you have no idea - yet - of the depths of _Hadju's_ sentiments.


cthia wrote:Granted. It's an awful lot of missiles to sling at so few targets. But the Admiral's sentiment is ripe with lots of frustration and bad memories of dead comrades who had already passed the plateau of firing what they thought was a lot.

You're in a missile duel with the enemy and you sling a few hundred missiles at them per your doctrine and they beat them back. Then someone else slings a few thousand at them and they easily beat them back too. Then the enemy easily shrugs off the hellish number of missiles slung about in the Second Battle of Manticore. You come to a point where you're frustrated, frightened, anxious and more than a bit annoyed, as well as totally unsure about exactly how many missiles are needed to do the trick. This Admiral needs a win for the SLN, and in not knowing exactly how many missiles are needed to swamp their defenses he errs on the frustrated side of caution. Remember, the insane amount of missiles used in a launch has long been eclipsed in the eyes of the League. They're still reeling over several thousand being useless.

Let's be realistic, the Manties have been holding back the full extent of their tech's capabilities. And they are still doing so. The Manties have beaten back everything but the kitchen sink, so you hurl the sink at 'em too. Because 120k missiles is sure a sink of missiles.

This Admiral's sentiment matches Byng's, IMO, giving much respect. Byng fired on Chatterly's 3 Destroyers with their wedges down. Say what you will about Byng, but he had absolutely no problem appreciating Manty tech. Truth of the matter be told, Byng didn't harbor any misconceptions about Manty capabilities. And neither did Admiral Kotouč. Heck, as far as Kotouč knew, 120k missiles wouldn't do any thing but cripple the opponent leaving them battle capable. He needed to mission kill them! F**king pesky Manties.

The way things have panned out for the gorilla, Rosiak could have been spouting more arrogance in the previous engagement. Heck, the Manties are destroying ships of the wall with heavy cruisers. Which means they already requisition their hardware from God, or Tester.

Not saying I agree with his decision to fire the farm, I'm the one who wishes the SLN would send someone still not coloring by the numbers. I'm just saying I can understand the human frustration behind "See how they like that."
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Re: Uncompromising Honor, Snippet #11
Post by Kumo   » Wed Jul 25, 2018 3:22 pm

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Did I just let the son-of-a-bitch sucker me? Hajdu Gyôzô wondered coldly.

Well, odds are that you'll be able to compare notes with Josef Byng, Sandra Crandall, and Massimo Filareta before too much longer...
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Re: Uncompromising Honor, Snippet #11
Post by cthia   » Wed Jul 25, 2018 4:22 pm

cthia
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Louis R wrote:Ummm... Kotouč is the Manty commander, actually, so he knows exactly what his capabilities are.

Byng had no appreciation of Manty tech whatsoever, and no interest in acquiring one, which is why a certain Solly tac officer managed to survive his displeasure. And you have no idea - yet - of the depths of _Hadju's_ sentiments.


cthia wrote:Granted. It's an awful lot of missiles to sling at so few targets. But the Admiral's sentiment is ripe with lots of frustration and bad memories of dead comrades who had already passed the plateau of firing what they thought was a lot.

You're in a missile duel with the enemy and you sling a few hundred missiles at them per your doctrine and they beat them back. Then someone else slings a few thousand at them and they easily beat them back too. Then the enemy easily shrugs off the hellish number of missiles slung about in the Second Battle of Manticore. You come to a point where you're frustrated, frightened, anxious and more than a bit annoyed, as well as totally unsure about exactly how many missiles are needed to do the trick. This Admiral needs a win for the SLN, and in not knowing exactly how many missiles are needed to swamp their defenses he errs on the frustrated side of caution. Remember, the insane amount of missiles used in a launch has long been eclipsed in the eyes of the League. They're still reeling over several thousand being useless.

Let's be realistic, the Manties have been holding back the full extent of their tech's capabilities. And they are still doing so. The Manties have beaten back everything but the kitchen sink, so you hurl the sink at 'em too. Because 120k missiles is sure a sink of missiles.

This Admiral's sentiment matches Byng's, IMO, giving much respect. Byng fired on Chatterly's 3 Destroyers with their wedges down. Say what you will about Byng, but he had absolutely no problem appreciating Manty tech. Truth of the matter be told, Byng didn't harbor any misconceptions about Manty capabilities. And neither did Admiral Kotouč. Heck, as far as Kotouč knew, 120k missiles wouldn't do any thing but cripple the opponent leaving them battle capable. He needed to mission kill them! F**king pesky Manties.

The way things have panned out for the gorilla, Rosiak could have been spouting more arrogance in the previous engagement. Heck, the Manties are destroying ships of the wall with heavy cruisers. Which means they already requisition their hardware from God, or Tester.

Not saying I agree with his decision to fire the farm, I'm the one who wishes the SLN would send someone still not coloring by the numbers. I'm just saying I can understand the human frustration behind "See how they like that."


Oopsie? Worked for Shannon.

Thanx for the correction. I must have Kotouc on the brain. Dunno how that gaffe occurred since I noted straight way that Hajdu's name reminds me of Hadji on Johnny Quest. Bet I'm not the only one where that's concerned. Anyway, me 'pologies.

And if you're trying to get me to crave the book even more by teasing me about the depths of Hadju's sentiments, it's working!

About Byng, yea, he had a deep appreciation for Manty tech alright, he just didn't have a deep appreciation for Manties. Everyone else should follow his example, seeing as though he's the only one who has engaged a Manty ship, lived to tell about it, and made his next meal.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Uncompromising Honor, Snippet #11
Post by Theemile   » Wed Jul 25, 2018 5:45 pm

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cthia wrote:
<snip>

This Admiral's sentiment matches Byng's, IMO, giving much respect. Byng fired on Chatterly's 3 Destroyers with their wedges down. Say what you will about Byng, but he had absolutely no problem appreciating Manty tech. Truth of the matter be told, Byng didn't harbor any misconceptions about Manty capabilities. And neither did Admiral Hadju. Heck, as far as Hadju knew, 120k missiles wouldn't do any thing but cripple the opponent leaving them battle capable. He needed to mission kill them! F**king pesky Manties.

The way things have panned out for the gorilla, Rosiak could have been spouting more arrogance in the previous engagement. Heck, the Manties are destroying ships of the wall with heavy cruisers. Which means they already requisition their hardware from God, or Tester.

Not saying I agree with his decision to fire the farm, I'm the one who wishes the SLN would send someone still not coloring by the numbers. I'm just saying I can understand the human frustration behind "See how they like that."

Edit: Hadju for Kotouc error caught by Louis R.

.



um... have you read the book? A major subplot was Byng ruining a lieutenant's career for passing along an appreciation document of Manty capabilities. Byng pompously stated that he knew the state of the SLN FTL programs and what people said the Manties could do was impossible.

Byng didn't know JACK about Manty capabilities and knee-jerked the attack on the Destroyers.
******
RFC said "refitting a Beowulfan SD to Manticoran standards would be just as difficult as refitting a standard SLN SD to those standards. In other words, it would be cheaper and faster to build new ships."
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Re: Uncompromising Honor, Snippet #11
Post by cthia   » Wed Jul 25, 2018 7:33 pm

cthia
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Posts: 14951
Joined: Thu Jan 23, 2014 1:10 pm

Theemile wrote:
cthia wrote:
<snip>

This Admiral's sentiment matches Byng's, IMO, giving much respect. Byng fired on Chatterly's 3 Destroyers with their wedges down. Say what you will about Byng, but he had absolutely no problem appreciating Manty tech. Truth of the matter be told, Byng didn't harbor any misconceptions about Manty capabilities. And neither did Admiral Hadju. Heck, as far as Hadju knew, 120k missiles wouldn't do any thing but cripple the opponent leaving them battle capable. He needed to mission kill them! F**king pesky Manties.

The way things have panned out for the gorilla, Rosiak could have been spouting more arrogance in the previous engagement. Heck, the Manties are destroying ships of the wall with heavy cruisers. Which means they already requisition their hardware from God, or Tester.

Not saying I agree with his decision to fire the farm, I'm the one who wishes the SLN would send someone still not coloring by the numbers. I'm just saying I can understand the human frustration behind "See how they like that."

Edit: Hadju for Kotouc error caught by Louis R.

.



um... have you read the book? A major subplot was Byng ruining a lieutenant's career for passing along an appreciation document of Manty capabilities. Byng pompously stated that he knew the state of the SLN FTL programs and what people said the Manties could do was impossible.

Byng didn't know JACK about Manty capabilities and knee-jerked the attack on the Destroyers.


Yes, yes . . . yes of course. I went back and forth about this with someone else. Of course Byng had no appreciation for Manty capabilities. No Solarian does outside the lone wolf back at ONI who no one listens to, has any appreciation for Manty capabilities. That's the real definition of institutional arrogance.*

BUT! It makes for a heck of a joke!

Why? Because through it all, when it came his turn to wrangle with the reality of the rumors, it was obvious to me that Byng was scared shitless! Which, IMO, shows a reeeeeeeal appreciation for whether or not those rumors were true considering how he chose to handle them.

Byng was scaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaared . . . shitless!


*BTW, my niece prefers to call it . . . institutional ignorance.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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