The rest of Rose's out of order snippet

Honor has been busy as a bee, hasn't she. She has actually established a bit of a line of succession for Harrington Steading hasn't she?

1. Raoul
2. Katherine
3. Nimitz, if Nimitz survives Honor and the Keys don't keel over from catoplexy.

cthia wrote:Honor has been busy as a bee, hasn't she. She has actually established a bit of a line of succession for Harrington Steading hasn't she?

1. Raoul
2. Katherine
3. Nimitz, if Nimitz survives Honor and the Keys don't keel over from catoplexy.

IIRC Katherine is explicitly NOT in the line of succession for Harrington Steading. I swear I remember that they kept the successions separate so Raoul is Honor's heir and Katherine is Hamish's; so she's 'only' first in line to inherit the Earldom of White Haven.

But I'm having trouble quickly finding supporting text-ev or posts; so maybe I'm misremembering.

saber964 wrote:

cthia wrote:Who is the oldest between Katherine and Raoul? I can't quite recollect the particulars. Is it big brother or big sister?

Thanks in advance.

Raoul is older by a couple of months.

Raoul was conceived because of a paperwork mess-op after Honor "returned from the dead" put the wrong date for her contraceptive implant into the system. Katherine was deliberately conceived after Raoul had been tubed, Ally figured out why Emily had never contributed eggs for an in-vitro conception, and engineered the failure to regrow injured body parts out of her ova. Took even Ally a couple of months to figure that out.

Jonathan_S wrote:

cthia wrote:Honor has been busy as a bee, hasn't she. She has actually established a bit of a line of succession for Harrington Steading hasn't she?

1. Raoul
2. Katherine
3. Nimitz, if Nimitz survives Honor and the Keys don't keel over from catoplexy.

IIRC Katherine is explicitly NOT in the line of succession for Harrington Steading. I swear I remember that they kept the successions separate so Raoul is Honor's heir and Katherine is Alexander's; so she's 'only' first in line to inherit the Earldom of White Haven.

But I'm having trouble quickly finding supporting text-ev or posts; so maybe I'm misremembering.

Katherine is not genetically related to Honor. She may be named as Honor's heir by Honor, but the lack of genetic relation may prompt the Keys from confirming her.

Now that Ithink about I recall mention of an heir from her body in the discussions resulting in Faith's birth.

PeterZ wrote:

cthia wrote:Honor has been busy as a bee, hasn't she. She has actually established a bit of a line of succession for Harrington Steading hasn't she?

1. Raoul
2. Katherine
3. Nimitz, if Nimitz survives Honor and the Keys don't keel over from catoplexy.

Jonathan_S wrote:IIRC Katherine is explicitly NOT in the line of succession for Harrington Steading. I swear I remember that they kept the successions separate so Raoul is Honor's heir and Katherine is Alexander's; so she's 'only' first in line to inherit the Earldom of White Haven.

But I'm having trouble quickly finding supporting text-ev or posts; so maybe I'm misremembering.

Katherine is not genetically related to Honor. She may be named as Honor's heir by Honor, but the lack of genetic relation may prompt the Keys from confirming her.

Now that Ithink about I recall mention of an heir from her body in the discussions resulting in Faith's birth.

Ah! Yes. Would Katherine be completely off the list? You know, that precedence thing again in case of desperation?

Anyways... Faith! How could I forget Faith? Who was certainly on the list once as she once was Steadholder Harrington. And could be again if precedence and desperation says need be?

Honor's line of succession is already shaping up to be a potentially tangled nest of messy precedence as well.


Late Edit:

I somehow juxtaposed Jonathan's and Peter's posts. Fixed it. My apology to both. Must have been my excitement in the midst of RFC making it rain snippets and posts. LOL

.

It's really not that complicated. Primogeniture(firstborn of the firstborn, etc.) keeps things simpler. Much simpler than gavelkind, anyway.

Honor's line of succession goes as follows:
1) Raoul(and his descendants)
2) Any other children of her own body
3) Faith
4) James
5) Any other children of her parents'
6) Her cousin Sarah, Countess of Harrington Earldom(and her descendants)

Applicable for both the Harrington Steading and Duchy, although Grayson obviously would prefer not to face the constitutional dilemmas involved in running out of Alfred & Allison's direct descendants, as outlined in Echoes of Honor.

Hamish's line of succession goes as follows:
1) Raoul(and his descendants)
2) Katherine
3) Any other children of his body
4) Willie Alexander
5) Alexander cousins(ie, non-primary descendants of previous Earl White Havens - probably dozens of them)

As it stands, Raoul will eventually inherit a Steading, a Duchy and an Earldom. The only way a split occurs is if Raoul dies without a heir of his own - in that case, Katherine would inherit White Haven whilst either Honor's second biological child(if she ever gets around to one) or sister gets the Duchy/Steading. If Raoul produces heirs, all three titles will remain enjoined.

Any more children Honor has will be with Hamish, so those would be inserted into both lines of successions - after Raoul and Katherine. At the same time, if Hamish has more children with Emily, those would only be inserted into his line of succession. All in the order they are born - twins Faith and James are separated only by minutes but she was born first and that's it as far as succession law is concerned.

munroburton wrote:It's really not that complicated. Primogeniture(firstborn of the firstborn, etc.) keeps things simpler. Much simpler than gavelkind, anyway.

Honor's line of succession goes as follows:
1) Raoul(and his descendants)
2) Any other children of her own body
3) Faith
4) James
5) Any other children of her parents'
6) Her cousin Sarah, Countess of Harrington Earldom(and her descendants)

Applicable for both the Harrington Steading and Duchy, although Grayson obviously would prefer not to face the constitutional dilemmas involved in running out of Alfred & Allison's direct descendants, as outlined in Echoes of Honor.

Hamish's line of succession goes as follows:
1) Raoul(and his descendants)
2) Katherine
3) Any other children of his body
4) Willie Alexander
5) Alexander cousins(ie, non-primary descendants of previous Earl White Havens - probably dozens of them)

As it stands, Raoul will eventually inherit a Steading, a Duchy and an Earldom. The only way a split occurs is if Raoul dies without a heir of his own - in that case, Katherine would inherit White Haven whilst either Honor's second biological child(if she ever gets around to one) or sister gets the Duchy/Steading. If Raoul produces heirs, all three titles will remain enjoined.

Any more children Honor has will be with Hamish, so those would be inserted into both lines of successions - after Raoul and Katherine. At the same time, if Hamish has more children with Emily, those would only be inserted into his line of succession. All in the order they are born - twins Faith and James are separated only by minutes but she was born first and that's it as far as succession law is concerned.

Incredible munroburton. ISTR your expertise and invaluable input in the area of all things "royal and successive" in the quite interesting Eridani Edict Violation of the most Dismissive Kind... thread where we were trying to figure out who would succeed Beth if the MAlign were successful in targeting and decapitating the entire Winton ship, leaving Honor. I notice you fly your flag in Scotland. I imagine all things dealing with succession is like everyday child's play to our royal friends across the pond. Do take that as a much deserved compliment with a contrail of truth.

But of course, anyone on Honor's list could succeed Hamish if his own successors are devastated, much as the danger shown with the success of Oyster Bay and what happened to Honor's family.

And wouldn't Honor's relatives, by marriage, have to be contenders for Harrington Steading by desperate circumstance, if Honor and all of her blood is somehow targeted and exterminated by the MAlign?

I am no expert and can only claim a passing interest. My grandmother was the royalist in the family. I won't say whether she was Jacobite or Windsor.

Plus anyone who's ever played Crusader Kings quickly comes to grasp the basic rules of various kinds of succession systems(and how to illegally subvert them and win!).

cthia wrote:But of course, anyone on Honor's list could succeed Hamish if his own successors are devastated, much as the danger shown with the success of Oyster Bay and what happened to Honor's family.

No, they could not. The Earldom of White Haven cannot ever pass to Faith, James or Sarah, etc.. by inheritance. It would run through Hamish's brother and then cousins before eventually becoming extinct if no one descended from the first Earl White Haven was left.

And wouldn't Honor's relatives, by marriage, have to be contenders for Harrington Steading by desperate circumstance, if Honor and all of her blood is somehow targeted and exterminated by the MAlign?

Not by marriage, no. Dynasties can and do die away. If Honor's bloodline is exterminated, then the Harrington titles go extinct and those respective lands revert to the Crown/Sword.

https://jeremyturcotte.wordpress.com/20 ... -peerages/

IIRC, this was a minor problem in Manticore - Elizabeth had to pull some strings to make sure the Harrington Earldom was inherited by Honor's cousin.

This may be because in the British system, someone who is raised to the nobility for the first time cannot pass their titles on to siblings. Horatio Nelson is an example - when he died, he had no male children and his titles officially went extinct.

The solution? Much as Honor's Elizabeth probably did, a special dispensation was created mentioning Horatio's father, sisters and awarding the re-created title to his living brother.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Earl_Nels ... .281798.29

munroburton wrote:No, they could not. The Earldom of White Haven cannot ever pass to Faith, James or Sarah, etc.. by inheritance. It would run through Hamish's brother and then cousins before eventually becoming extinct if no one descended from the first Earl White Haven was left.

That's also my understanding. That by default titles can't pass through marriage - only through blood (or possibly adoption).

The obvious exception would be the coregency of King William III and Queen Mary II where it was made explicit that William would remain king should Mary predecease him. (unlike Queen Mary I and Philip of Spain where Philips powers were explicitly limited and he would be king only while Mary lived). OTOH they were married before either was raised to the throne, and this coregency was a result of negotiation with Parliament to replace the fled King James - so that was more joint ruilership with right of survivorship and as a result of a specific Parlimentary act rather than the normal course of events.

Jonathan_S wrote:

munroburton wrote:No, they could not. The Earldom of White Haven cannot ever pass to Faith, James or Sarah, etc.. by inheritance. It would run through Hamish's brother and then cousins before eventually becoming extinct if no one descended from the first Earl White Haven was left.

That's also my understanding. That by default titles can't pass through marriage - only through blood (or possibly adoption).

The obvious exception would be the coregency of King William III and Queen Mary II where it was made explicit that William would remain king should Mary predecease him. (unlike Queen Mary I and Philip of Spain where Philips powers were explicitly limited and he would be king only while Mary lived). OTOH they were married before either was raised to the throne, and this coregency was a result of negotiation with Parliament to replace the fled King James - so that was more joint ruilership with right of survivorship and as a result of a specific Parlimentary act rather than the normal course of events.

It should be noted that William III himself had blood descent from King Charles I and W3 married his first cousin Mary who was James II/VII's daughter, then seized James' throne by force, displacing the legitimate succession somewhat.

The Mary-William coupling did not produce any heirs and therefore passed on to Mary's sister Anne, another blood descendant of James II before ultimately passing to the Hanovers.