Oh, what the heck . . .

wonderful. and a possible great short story just on how the people survived to get to thier new world. i see other pointed out a few of the inner flaws all easily fixed.

bolthole is another version of darius.

now David if you ever want to tell us whats been happening in Silesa with Sarnow and company...

Now that the deed and need is done, will Refuge be leveled with? Will they be given what the universe owes them? How will they react to Haven in the wake of the revelation?

Seems like the Havenites are quite fond of withholding very profound information.

Knowing Eloise, I'm pretty sure that you're indulging in some flawed assumptions.

And the parallel isn't with Darius but with a planet figuring in a much, much older series...

cthia wrote:Now that the deed and need is done, will Refuge be leveled with? Will they be given what the universe owes them? How will they react to Haven in the wake of the revelation?

Seems like the Havenites are quite fond of withholding very profound information.

Huh? Eloise had nothing to do with the deed that was done before she became privy...

-snip-

Anyone but the People’s Republic of Haven would have immediately announced the discovery of the lost Calvin Expedition's descendents. The Legislaturalists, however, had seen an enormous opportunity. Not only was Refuge incredibly rich in raw materials, but it offered a labor force almost a billion strong. A labor force without a single clue about what lay beyond the bounds of their own planetary atmosphere . . . or of the staggering wealth their system’s astrography represented.

A labor force which ought to be eager to repay its deliverers for the wonders of the modern technology — the almost magical technology — they brought with them.

It was the sort of situation a bureaucrat in the Solarian League’s Office of Frontier Security could only dream of.

Eloise's moral dilemma began afterwards...

An industrial complex, she thought now, which rightfully belongs to the people of Sanctuary, not to us! And what possible right – what excuse — can we have for keeping those same people penned up inside their own star system? Hasn’t the galaxy done enough to these people without us taking advantage of their tragedy?

-snip-

How do I resolve this? she thought bitterly. I’m the President of the Republic of Haven. Obviously, my first and highest responsibility is to my citizens, not the Sanctuarians or anyone else in the damned galaxy! And over and above that, what about my responsibility to the men and women like Javier and Lester — and Theisman — who’ve already fought and died for the Constitution we’re trying to restore? But morally, how do I justify continuing to treat Refuge and everyone living here the same way Frontier Security treats its ‘clients’ . . . only more so. At least the rest of the galaxy knows the Protectorates exist! That puts some limits on what OFS and its cronies can get away with where they’re concerned. But Refuge . . . .

She leaned back against her seat’s head rest as the shuttle raced onward toward Mountain Fort and closed her eyes.

The penchant for withholding profound information was an observation to the parallel of the forged diplomatic correspondence of which Haven withheld from Elizabeth. Whose onus of responsibility to come clean likewise was inherited by and fell upon Eloise's shoulders.

*Headscratch* on your sentiment regarding Darius.

Louis R wrote:Knowing Eloise, I'm pretty sure that you're indulging in some flawed assumptions.

And the parallel isn't with Darius but with a planet figuring in a much, much older series...

cthia wrote:Now that the deed and need is done, will Refuge be leveled with? Will they be given what the universe owes them? How will they react to Haven in the wake of the revelation?

Seems like the Havenites are quite fond of withholding very profound information.

cthia wrote:Huh? Eloise had nothing to do with the deed that was done before she became privy...

-snip-

Anyone but the People’s Republic of Haven would have immediately announced the discovery of the lost Calvin Expedition's descendents. The Legislaturalists, however, had seen an enormous opportunity. Not only was Refuge incredibly rich in raw materials, but it offered a labor force almost a billion strong. A labor force without a single clue about what lay beyond the bounds of their own planetary atmosphere . . . or of the staggering wealth their system’s astrography represented.

A labor force which ought to be eager to repay its deliverers for the wonders of the modern technology — the almost magical technology — they brought with them.

It was the sort of situation a bureaucrat in the Solarian League’s Office of Frontier Security could only dream of.

Eloise's moral dilemma began afterwards...

An industrial complex, she thought now, which rightfully belongs to the people of Sanctuary, not to us! And what possible right – what excuse — can we have for keeping those same people penned up inside their own star system? Hasn’t the galaxy done enough to these people without us taking advantage of their tragedy?

-snip-

How do I resolve this? she thought bitterly. I’m the President of the Republic of Haven. Obviously, my first and highest responsibility is to my citizens, not the Sanctuarians or anyone else in the damned galaxy! And over and above that, what about my responsibility to the men and women like Javier and Lester — and Theisman — who’ve already fought and died for the Constitution we’re trying to restore? But morally, how do I justify continuing to treat Refuge and everyone living here the same way Frontier Security treats its ‘clients’ . . . only more so. At least the rest of the galaxy knows the Protectorates exist! That puts some limits on what OFS and its cronies can get away with where they’re concerned. But Refuge . . . .

She leaned back against her seat’s head rest as the shuttle raced onward toward Mountain Fort and closed her eyes.

The penchant for withholding profound information was an observation to the parallel of the forged diplomatic correspondence of which Haven withheld from Elizabeth. Whose onus of responsibility to come clean likewise was inherited by and fell upon Eloise's shoulders.

*Headscratch* on your sentiment regarding Darius.

The question occurs to me, now that the equation has changed so markedly with the new alliance between Haven and The Star Empire, what does President Pritchard do with regards to the people of Sanctuary?

Does she offer them a plebiscite with a choice of eventual system independence or full citizenship in the Republic, or does she go another way because of the way these people were treated first by the Legislaturalists and later by the succeeding People's Republic?

That could be worth 2 or 3 novels easily, laying out the history of the system post discovery up through the implementation of whatever course is decided.

Timeline issue... How can admiral Theisman suggest Eloise something that sounds like a first visit to Bolthole in IIRC War of Honor if she was already there during the civil war?

aairfccha wrote:Timeline issue... How can admiral Theisman suggest Eloise something that sounds like a first visit to Bolthole in IIRC War of Honor if she was already there during the civil war?

I think I found what you were referring to - it was in At All Costs (Prolog)

At All Costs wrote:"After what they did to us in the last war, and especially Buttercup, it's hard not to feel a little doubtful, Tom," she [Pritchart] said a bit apologetically.
"I suppose it is," he conceded. "But in this case, yes, I do believe we can defeat the Star Kingdom and its allies if we have to. I really need to take you out to Bolthole to actually see what we're doing there, and discuss everything Shannon Foraker is up to.

I don't find that incompatible with this new information that Eloise visited the Refuge system during the Havenite civil wars.

That was not long after they took Bolthole over - before they started laying down SD(P)s there, before Foraker got assigned to run the place, etc.


So basically in that quote he's not saying I need to take you out to Bolthole for the first time to see it; he's saying "I really need to take you [back] out to Bolthole to actually see what we're doing there [lately], and discuss everything Shannon Foraker is up to [her R&D work, etc].."



Sure, in absence of this new snippet it was reasonable enough to assume Pritchart had never been there before. But it doesn't actually say that...

President Pritchard had a very large tangled ball- moral, political, economic, military and security with Sanctuary.

Particularly with the Alignment on top of the problem of Solarian League wanting to crush the GA, keeping Bolt Hole a secure location is massive. How to continue to contain the information is critical

It is Haven's- and now a major source to Manticore- only secure heavy industry and military construction location.
We really don't know the political situation in-system though with more than a billion people, some of them have got to be unhappy with Haven essentialy having taken over and are running the system. They had the earlier (and undoubtedly unfortunate ) experience with State Security being in control and not is is PROBABLY ROH Military in the top govenmental positions. We have no info yet on how any of the Santuary population fits other than as a productive and probably agressively active workforce vs being "citizens" of the now Republic of Haven

Bolt hole may or may not be generating any exports beyond military and military related products for Haven (and now also Manticore). They may or may not be contributing to development of new processes and new inventions. One way of another, Haven has been the source of funding and end user of all that equipment/ships though we don't know what may have been "paid" to Santuary in return for that. Need more explination. Darius is in a similar situation thought clearly the same narrative of The Detweiler Plan and Darius being the proud arsenal creating all the things needed to defend the Alignment isn't being flogged (we don't think) on Santuary.

For all we know, State Security may have set up manufacturing for export goods with our without the agreement of PRH's leadership so that PRH (or at least SS) could start generating income/cash flow and funding. ROH may also have at least tried to diversify the industries to provide for some of it's own internal consumer and commercial goods along with a source of export products. At what point would they be willing to let the people of Santuary (not the PRH/ROH citizens) start taking over existing assest or developing their own.

At what point can ROH even think of letting people of Santuary- and anybody who has moved there from PRH/ROH, out of the system? That includes letting them serve in the ROH military and being part of ship's crews in ROHN or any of it merchant marine? You let them out and word spreads.

Messy. Not as messy as Darius, but messy.

President Pritchard has to wrestle with being able to have Santuary acknowleged (along with it's history and struggles) to the outside universe vs continuing to be

cthia wrote:Huh? Eloise had nothing to do with the deed that was done before she became privy...

-snip-

Anyone but the People’s Republic of Haven would have immediately announced the discovery of the lost Calvin Expedition's descendents. The Legislaturalists, however, had seen an enormous opportunity. Not only was Refuge incredibly rich in raw materials, but it offered a labor force almost a billion strong. A labor force without a single clue about what lay beyond the bounds of their own planetary atmosphere . . . or of the staggering wealth their system’s astrography represented.

A labor force which ought to be eager to repay its deliverers for the wonders of the modern technology — the almost magical technology — they brought with them.

It was the sort of situation a bureaucrat in the Solarian League’s Office of Frontier Security could only dream of.

cthia wrote:Eloise's moral dilemma began afterwards...

An industrial complex, she thought now, which rightfully belongs to the people of Sanctuary, not to us! And what possible right – what excuse — can we have for keeping those same people penned up inside their own star system? Hasn’t the galaxy done enough to these people without us taking advantage of their tragedy?

-snip-

How do I resolve this? she thought bitterly. I’m the President of the Republic of Haven. Obviously, my first and highest responsibility is to my citizens, not the Sanctuarians or anyone else in the damned galaxy! And over and above that, what about my responsibility to the men and women like Javier and Lester — and Theisman — who’ve already fought and died for the Constitution we’re trying to restore? But morally, how do I justify continuing to treat Refuge and everyone living here the same way Frontier Security treats its ‘clients’ . . . only more so. At least the rest of the galaxy knows the Protectorates exist! That puts some limits on what OFS and its cronies can get away with where they’re concerned. But Refuge . . . .

She leaned back against her seat’s head rest as the shuttle raced onward toward Mountain Fort and closed her eyes.

The penchant for withholding profound information was an observation to the parallel of the forged diplomatic correspondence of which Haven withheld from Elizabeth. Whose onus of responsibility to come clean likewise was inherited by and fell upon Eloise's shoulders.

*Headscratch* on your sentiment regarding Darius.

robert132 wrote:The question occurs to me, now that the equation has changed so markedly with the new alliance between Haven and The Star Empire, what does President Pritchard do with regards to the people of Sanctuary?

Does she offer them a plebiscite with a choice of eventual system independence or full citizenship in the Republic, or does she go another way because of the way these people were treated first by the Legislaturalists and later by the succeeding People's Republic?

That could be worth 2 or 3 novels easily, laying out the history of the system post discovery up through the implementation of whatever course is decided.

Good question which begets many more.

I think she owes them full citizenship if that isn't getting the cart before the horse -- a cart pending what come's out of the horse's mouth regarding the horse's heart about being used, pawned, taken advantage of, and deceived. Once the galaxy at large finds out about them then courting them is open season. Lawfully, Haven would have no claim on them. In fact, this could become a point of contention between Haven and Manticore if the Sanctuarians were to choose to become part of the Star Kingdom. OMG, what if they chose to become part of the League? Their "motherland."

Considering their present level of technological ignorance, they are vulnerable to even the poorest of pirates.

It is obvious that they are also owed reparations.

I find it incredibly ironic that he who "Dreams of Peace" is found at the foot of this mess.

To seek out peace in his own system, Theisman had to lay a possible foundation of hatred in another.

Oh what a web will the Weber spin?
Oh what a web has the Weber spun?
Oh what a web will the spinner pen?
Oh what a weave that will all be fun!