SPOILER ... Do the ends justify the means???

WeirdlyWired wrote:

Eyal wrote:I'd think the biggest problem would be how this would affect the Houdini evacuees. Unless they go full isolationist, news will filter in sooner or later and even those of them who didn't have close relations left on Mesa could still be shocked by the lengths to which Houdini went. It might well contribute to disaffecting some of them.

I suspect that there would be an effort to censor the news or to blame it on Gold Peak but, that brings me back to the cracks in the pavement...

If I could sit down with David and share a few fingers of single malt, I think that I would find out that the Manties and Mesan Navies will make their sensor logs available to the reporter who will even be able to consult with her technical supporters back home to find out that 1) no missiles were used and 2) the profile of the material used in the blasts matches that of the bomb that McBride set off.

We were told that Audrey is a second generation deep plant of the Mesan Alliance but I don't know how that will impact her in this case. Frankly, I have trouble seeing how something like that would work when a person forms loyalties based on their own experiences, much more than on their parents.
But that is another of the means in some long range "master plan" conspiracy and flowers growing up through the cracks have a way of changing a point of view.

C. O. Thompson wrote:<snip>

OK... but if there are sharks in orbit, they will likely be caught because, the Manties now know what to look for. The got data which no one understood before Oyster Bay hit and now they are building the Mycroft systems with that information... any spider drive will be found.
Still, my original question... are we really justified to think any means are acceptable to meet our ends?
Values change, on an individual basis and in society.
In the history of the Honorverse, genetically modified people in an attempt to build the super race was tried with near total catastrophic results. So Detwiller thinks he figured it out and goes into hiding for six hundred years to build the ultimate humans. He did a lot of nasty stuff along the way but always thought it was OK because it was their plan.
If you or your family got caught in the crossfire of someone who was equally sure his plan was right (some drug lord or dishonest politician or what have you power broker, do their means justify their end results if they destroy you or someone you love?

kzt wrote:They have NO IDEA. They may know the broad concept and possibly the nickname. The MAN, which built them and has a complete understanding of the theory and technology, can detect the drive at a light second. Which is inside energy range.

The RMN believes that they can detect and effectively prosecute a ship making a subtle hyper transit around Manticore and have a reasonable ability to detect the narrow thermal signature that is theorized to exist on a spider ship.

But say you have a spider around Mesa. The blow up the orbital stations and leave. How close is anyone going to get to see the thermal signature from the ship, which is pointed at Mesa and oddly enough not at the approaching RMN ships?

munroburton wrote:In the books, the spider ships returned to Darius after Oyster Bay. They should all still be there - there was a conversation where one of Albrecht's clonesons dissuaded him from sending any of them out again. They're definitely sitting tight on operational use of the spider until the big Leonards are ready.

The problem with those nukes on Mesa isn't whether they were delivered from space or not. It's that no one can ever conclusively prove who planted them - whether it was Alignment operatives or Ballroom operatives working with the Manticore-Haven alliance.

Zilwicki's earlier, widely-publicised visit to Mesa is a potent backdrop for this. It'd be very easy to construct a theory where Green Pines was a test and they'd given the Seccies 30 more nukes to use for Houdini's final part.

Rincewind wrote:Might I also point out that the explosion occurred near simultaneously (allowing for transmission lag) after Albrecht Detweiller pressed the button of the device in his hand. (Shadow of Victory Chapter 77 page 748). To me that strongly suggests that they were demolition charges already emplaced & not missiles launched from any Sharks which may have been orbiting. Also the reluctance of Benjamin to expose the Sharks to discovery by trying to attack the remainder of the RMN's wall of battle at Trevor's Star would also argue against leaving one or several of them in close orbit to Mesa when they were already evacuating Mesa because of its known vulnerability to attack by the GA especially when they had gone to great lengths to make sure nobody else knew about them.

kzt wrote:They have NO IDEA. They may know the broad concept and possibly the nickname. The MAN, which built them and has a complete understanding of the theory and technology, can detect the drive at a light second. Which is inside energy range.

The RMN believes that they can detect and effectively prosecute a ship making a subtle hyper transit around Manticore and have a reasonable ability to detect the narrow thermal signature that is theorized to exist on a spider ship.

But say you have a spider around Mesa. The blow up the orbital stations and leave. How close is anyone going to get to see the thermal signature from the ship, which is pointed at Mesa and oddly enough not at the approaching RMN ships?