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The mandarins

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Re: The mandarins
Post by Ed130 The Vanguard   » Sun Jul 31, 2016 9:14 am

Ed130 The Vanguard
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Maldorian wrote:The most economic solution would be peace with manticore.



From an economic standpoint yes it is, however as one Honorable Reginald Houseman PhD showed us is that economics however vital are not the end-all and be-all of interstellar politics.

It was quite clearly stated that the League brokes no-one overtly defying them and that 'the admission of weakness' suing for peace would be seen as could end the League or at very least cause a partial break-up.

The League has always relied on its aura of invincibility to enforce its will and now that it has been shattered they must rebuild it, by crushing the little upstart that dared raise its hand at the Solarian League.

Of course the SLN has found doing this to be a bit difficult.
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Re: The mandarins
Post by munroburton   » Sun Jul 31, 2016 1:28 pm

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JohnRoth wrote:Given that it's Tenth Fleet, Michelle isn't going to stop properly certified news couriers from transiting. The Mantacorans are sticklers for that kind of thing. She's also going to announce the legal basis for her attack on Mesa, and she's going to take over that end of the hyper bridge.

She isn't going to do an attack on Visigoth through the wormhole. That dead horse has been flogged into a pulp in discussions about the Torch wormhole.


Didn't Manticore block Havenite newsies from using the Junction during the wars? Sollies might have been able to bypass that, but since they're at war with the Sollies, these boats can now be denied passage. True, they allowed it during Second Manticore, but this was with foreknowledge it would trigger Tsang's force.

I never said Visigoth was going to be taken via a wormhole assault from Mesa - if the GA has any sense, reinforcements can do that job using Beowulf as a jumping-off point once the plebscite passes. But indeed, the delay this imposes may serve to close the Mesa bridge in the name of safety for a few months.
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Re: The mandarins
Post by JohnRoth   » Sun Jul 31, 2016 2:44 pm

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munroburton wrote:
JohnRoth wrote:Given that it's Tenth Fleet, Michelle isn't going to stop properly certified news couriers from transiting. The Mantacorans are sticklers for that kind of thing. She's also going to announce the legal basis for her attack on Mesa, and she's going to take over that end of the hyper bridge.

She isn't going to do an attack on Visigoth through the wormhole. That dead horse has been flogged into a pulp in discussions about the Torch wormhole.


Didn't Manticore block Havenite newsies from using the Junction during the wars? Sollies might have been able to bypass that, but since they're at war with the Sollies, these boats can now be denied passage. True, they allowed it during Second Manticore, but this was with foreknowledge it would trigger Tsang's force.

I never said Visigoth was going to be taken via a wormhole assault from Mesa - if the GA has any sense, reinforcements can do that job using Beowulf as a jumping-off point once the plebscite passes. But indeed, the delay this imposes may serve to close the Mesa bridge in the name of safety for a few months.


There's no reason I can tell for Admiral Gold Peak to want to keep the Mandarins from knowing what's happening, and every reason for her to want the Solarian and other news services to broadcast it far and wide.

And I'm expecting a GA task force to show up on Visigoth's doorstep in a few months, once news gets back to Manticore. Admiral Gold Peak needs to keep it open so the Torch and Beowulf delegations can get through.
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Re: The mandarins
Post by Weird Harold   » Sun Jul 31, 2016 3:20 pm

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JohnRoth wrote:There's no reason I can tell for Admiral Gold Peak to want to keep the Mandarins from knowing what's happening, and every reason for her to want the Solarian and other news services to broadcast it far and wide.


I'm fully expecting Adm Gold Peak to grant an interview to the reknowned solarian reporter, Audrie Hanrahan. (sp?) It should be interesting to see what that MAlign agent will report on Earth afterwards.
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Answers! I got lots of answers!

(Now if I could just find the right questions.)
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Re: The mandarins
Post by JohnRoth   » Sun Jul 31, 2016 5:11 pm

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Weird Harold wrote:
JohnRoth wrote:There's no reason I can tell for Admiral Gold Peak to want to keep the Mandarins from knowing what's happening, and every reason for her to want the Solarian and other news services to broadcast it far and wide.


I'm fully expecting Adm Gold Peak to grant an interview to the reknowned solarian reporter, Audrie Hanrahan. (sp?) It should be interesting to see what that MAlign agent will report on Earth afterwards.


Well, maybe. And maybe she'll smell a rat and have a very special welcome prepared.
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Re: The mandarins
Post by Rincewind   » Sun Jul 31, 2016 6:17 pm

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Daryl wrote:Reminds me about an old comedy skit by Irish comedian Dave Allen.
Centurion in tent dictating to a scribe that the Legions are being overrun by the Huns who have developed new weapons. He concludes that the message may be too late getting to Rome to save the Empire because of the long communication time. Scribe leaves tent, then horse heard rapidly departing. Moments later, NAZI Storm Troopers burst in with Schmeissers and gun him down.

The communication lag will doom this empire as well.


When did you watch Dave Allen? He was going when I was a young boy! One of my favourite comedians of the day especially with his sketches about the Roman Catholic Church.
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Re: The mandarins
Post by Rincewind   » Sun Jul 31, 2016 6:24 pm

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JohnRoth wrote:
JohnRoth wrote:SNIP

Exactly what happens from that point on is a little speculative. The next thing we know happens, though, is

1922/11 Earth Mandarins learn that Manticore has taken over the Madras Sector, Meyers, Mesa and the Mesa end of the Visigoth - Mesa hyperbridge.

Presumably the Beowulf plebescite and the Battle of Beowulf happen in between. Planets begin seceding like dandruff. When Maya Sector secedes is unknown.


George J. Smith wrote:
I don't remember reading anything about the mandarins finding out about those. Michelle stopped all the ships leaving the Meyers system, and as of the end of SoF the mystery fleet had only just arrived at Mesa, there was no mention of the Visigoth-Mesa hyper-bridge being interdicted.

Given the amount of time it would take for the information to reach the Sol system, the plebiscite could be done and dusted before the GA tell the mandarins about what happened in the Meyers System & Mesa.



munroburton wrote:It's a given the Mandarins will hear about the Visigoth Junction no longer receiving traffic from the Mesa terminus even if the VWJ itself is not taken. They might get a report of hostile capital ships arriving in Mesa, from civilian traffic using the Mesa terminus to leave at that moment.

These won't be informed about what's happened to the Meyers sector, though. According to the big map, Meyers is further away from Mesa than Haven is from Manticore(without the Trevor's Star shortcut!). Given the differences in civilian and military hyper generators, Tenth Fleet long overtook any merchant traffic carrying messages of the Meyers incident.

A simple blockade of the Mesa terminus can therefore delay Sol being notified of transpired events for a further three months - and that's if the message-carrying ship makes no stops along the way.


Given that it's Tenth Fleet, Michelle isn't going to stop properly certified news couriers from transiting. The Mantacorans are sticklers for that kind of thing. She's also going to announce the legal basis for her attack on Mesa, and she's going to take over that end of the hyper bridge.

She isn't going to do an attack on Visigoth through the wormhole. That dead horse has been flogged into a pulp in discussions about the Torch wormhole.


Under the circumstances, Michelle may well decide to hold ALL shipping including the News Couriers because this is a special situation. Certainly it is implied that she did that with the Meyers System to make sure nobody had any idea that the system had been liberated.

As for occupying the Visigoth/Mesa Wormhole that is a different kettle of fish to the Torch Wormhole. That one was an unexplored/uncharted one that the Manties have already lost one ship going through. The Visigoth Wormhole is charted. The only question then would be does it have any fixed defences? If, as seems likely, it does, then an attack through the wormhole would be futile. If it doesn't, however, then all bets are off.
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Re: The mandarins
Post by Loren Pechtel   » Sun Jul 31, 2016 6:29 pm

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Maldorian wrote:The most economic solution would be peace with manticore.

For the big solarian companies patriotism is patriotism and Money is Money.

I think the Mandarins should have a great amout of pressure from the People who cout in their eyes: "The rich and the mighty ones"!


What you are missing is that accepting such a military defeat at the hands of a neobarb nation means there will be plenty of other neobarbs now standing up to the SLN. The Solarian League has survived only because it was considered militarily invincible.

A failure to stomp hard on Manticore means a death by a thousand cuts. Thus the 1000# gorilla is desperately looking for how to stomp on the 100,000# bird that just showed up.
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Re: The mandarins
Post by Fox2!   » Sun Jul 31, 2016 7:34 pm

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JohnRoth wrote:Given that it's Tenth Fleet, Michelle isn't going to stop properly certified news couriers from transiting. The Mantacorans are sticklers for that kind of thing. She's also going to announce the legal basis for her attack on Mesa, and she's going to take over that end of the hyper bridge.

She isn't going to do an attack on Visigoth through the wormhole. That dead horse has been flogged into a pulp in discussions about the Torch wormhole.


That would be true if it's 10th Fleet and Mike showing up. What if Chien-Lu has just come over the wall, instead? Or he decides to embargo the wormhole with a couple of DD?
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Re: The mandarins
Post by Eagleeye   » Mon Aug 01, 2016 8:10 am

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Fox2! wrote:
JohnRoth wrote:Given that it's Tenth Fleet, Michelle isn't going to stop properly certified news couriers from transiting. The Mantacorans are sticklers for that kind of thing. She's also going to announce the legal basis for her attack on Mesa, and she's going to take over that end of the hyper bridge.

She isn't going to do an attack on Visigoth through the wormhole. That dead horse has been flogged into a pulp in discussions about the Torch wormhole.


That would be true if it's 10th Fleet and Mike showing up. What if Chien-Lu has just come over the wall, instead? Or he decides to embargo the wormhole with a couple of DD?


Depends on the timeframe we're looking at. What was the date, Rabenstrange discussed the neutrality concerning Manticores conflict with the SL with Honor and, later, Elizabeth? And was the time after that discussion long enough to make it possible, that he could get to Mesa via the Lynx terminus and be there earlier than Gold Peak?
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