Changes in Battle tactics outside planetary hyper limits

Lord Skimper wrote:Don't worry these guys don't like micro jumps. In the Honorverse ship combat is basically age of sail in space...

MAD-4A wrote:that being said... the SL has LOTS of SDs and that can mitigate the M/H range advantage by dropping a few hundred right on the wormhole mouth and opening up with Grazers. They could also drop one fleet at a distance. Force the defenders to come out after them and have a 2nd fleet (hold-up in hyper) to drop down and jump through when the junction's clear (bait and switch) if they really want to send one through.

Jonathan_S wrote:

MAD-4A wrote:that being said... the SL has LOTS of SDs and that can mitigate the M/H range advantage by dropping a few hundred right on the wormhole mouth and opening up with Grazers. They could also drop one fleet at a distance. Force the defenders to come out after them and have a 2nd fleet (hold-up in hyper) to drop down and jump through when the junction's clear (bait and switch) if they really want to send one through.

Of course if Manticore is holding both ends of the wormhole sending that 2nd fleet of SDs through the wormhole is just an painful way to commit suicide.

They'll pop out on the far side, within missile range of the defenders, and be stuck without wedges, sidewalls, towed decoys, CMs, or missiles for several minutes. Just sails, hull armor, PDLCs, and onboard ECM to try to stave off the onboard missiles and/or pods of the defending units. In that situation even Rolands or Avalons could tear big nasty chunks out of SDs...


You really don't want to attack through a wormhole if you've any other choice. Much better to take that other terminus through another normal attack from hyper.

Vince wrote:

Jonathan_S wrote:[snip]
You really don't want to attack through a wormhole if you've any other choice. Much better to take that other terminus through another normal attack from hyper.

You left out one word in the first sentence of your last paragraph. I would reword it to:

You really don't want to attack through a fortified wormhole if you've any other choice.

Since the RMN essentially did attack (apparently without firing a single shot during the transits) through unfortified wormholes during Lacoön II.

And so that's the word I'm going to go back and edit into the earlier post

Jonathan_S wrote:

Somtaaw wrote:Wormholes themselves have their own (small) hyper limits, thats why at uhh... one of the wormholes, a solarian flagged freighter was "escorted" by a squadron of BC's from extended range in. This was partly because of the hyper limit, and partly because they thought the slow approach would unnerve the Manticorans.

Keep in mind that the resonance zone, where it's unsafe to exit hyper, extend in a narrow cone from the terminus towards the system's hyperlimit. That makes it impractical to microjump from the system towards the wormhole; depending on wormhole power its a rough entry to hyper and then you need to ensure you land outside the zone (well off the direct line)

So ships coming from the local system are quite likely to advance on you through n-space; letting you use the missile range advantage you noted; and giving time to pull back through the wormhole before they can take you under fire if they have overwhelming force.

But against an attacker coming from another system you don't have the same kind of warning time. The actual hyperlimit around s terminus is quite small. On I don't even think it's as wide as missile range. So there's a chance that you will get taken under fire the moment they appears. You definitely would not want to retreat through a wormhole under fire; you're too vulnerable and would get destroyed. In this scenario you'd need to retreat through hyper instead.

You're right, the resonance zone isn't very large and you could come from a different direction than the local star, and "pull a Basilisk", however Manticoran ships on wormholes know that form of assault can be done. So they're not just going to be sitting with cold wedges, they're probably operating more like Honor was during her multi-hour "fight" with Thunder of God. Rotating personnel and ships through ready, five just in case Solarian (or hostiles in general) tried to assault from hyper.

However, you must also account for the hyper Alpha wall sickness factor. Even slow, gradual transits such as when Honor took a bunch of merchies to Grayson in Honor of the Queen, there's at least a period of at about 30 seconds where you won't be firing. And crash translations could incapacitate crews for between 15 and 30 minutes... and that was with navies that expected for and trained for combat, namely Manticore, Haven and Andermani navies.

The Solarian League Navy however, sits on its butts and only ran simulations. We don't have any hard data on their training methods, but its highly doubtful they trained new officers and enlisted anywhere near like Manticore or Haven did. So we can figure any high-speed, crash translations intended to surprise Manticorans holding Solarian wormholes to be horrible failures.

They might try to microjump once during a battle, in At All Costs

"Admiral," she said instead, controlling her tone carefully, "the incoming forces we know about are on Zanzibar's side of the primary. They're coming in on the shortest, least-time approach. If we move towards them, we'll remain between them and the inner system. Forces approaching from other directions will have much further to travel, and I think it's unlikely we could be drawn far enough out of position to prevent us from responding if and when they make their alpha translation and we detect their footprints."
-snip-
"Overall," al-Bakr said, "I agree that your assessment is logical. However, if you advance far enough from the planet under Hilde-brandt, they could execute a polar translation and effectively cut in behind you. Particularly since your base velocity would be directly away from the planet at the moment they made translation."

Padgorny's jaw muscles tightened. What al-Bakr was suggesting was at least theoretically feasible. But it wouldn't be easy, and she couldn't conceive of any rational reason for the Peeps to attempt any such complicated maneuver.

Jonathan_S wrote:...You really don't want to attack through a defended wormhole if you've any other choice. Much better to take that other terminus through another normal attack from hyper.

"if they really want to send one through."

Jonathan_S wrote:[snip]
You really don't want to attack through a wormhole if you've any other choice. Much better to take that other terminus through another normal attack from hyper.

Vince wrote:You left out one word in the first sentence of your last paragraph. I would reword it to:

You really don't want to attack through a fortified wormhole if you've any other choice.

Since the RMN essentially did attack (apparently without firing a single shot during the transits) through unfortified wormholes during Lacoön II.

Jonathan_S wrote:I'd quibble the correct word should be "defended", not "fortified" And so that's the word I'm going to go back and edit into the earlier post . Even a few cruisers parked within missile range are enough to ruin the day of at least the first several SDs coming through. You don't need a fully fortified terminus for it to be a bad idea to assault through.

But you're right, if there are no defenders then you can easily sail through and then seize the wormhole; as Manticore did during Lacoön II. (Might quibble that transiting an undefended wormhole without permission isn't exactly "attacking through", but that's trying to weasel word out of your valid point )

MAD-4A wrote:(snip)
that being said... the SL has LOTS of SDs and that can mitigate the M/H range advantage by dropping a few hundred right on the wormhole mouth and opening up with Grazers. They could also drop one fleet at a distance. Force the defenders to come out after them and have a 2nd fleet (hold-up in hyper) to drop down and jump through when the junction's clear (bait and switch) if they really want to send one through.

StealthSeeker wrote:

MAD-4A wrote:(snip)
that being said... the SL has LOTS of SDs and that can mitigate the M/H range advantage by dropping a few hundred right on the wormhole mouth and opening up with Grazers. They could also drop one fleet at a distance. Force the defenders to come out after them and have a 2nd fleet (hold-up in hyper) to drop down and jump through when the junction's clear (bait and switch) if they really want to send one through.

Yes, this is more of what I have in mind. A one two punch. Or even a one two three punch. Doing manoeuvres to get the occupying force to use it's missiles, to get them out of position so they become susceptible to attack from someone dropping out of hyper on their backside. The RMN force would then have the option of "jumping" out of trouble, then coming back on a micro jump of their own. If the SL is able to take one end of the wormhole, they could lay in wait for any AG ships that might come through. So at the beginning of any attack on a defended wormhole, the defenders would have to send a messenger ship though the wormhole, warning the other side that an attack was under way. If a second ship did not come through with a final status of the battle, then the one end would know that the other end had been taken. They could then be ready to blast anything that comes through.

And I still think mines at and occupied wormhole would be a reasonable substitute for a fort. They could keep the SLN force busy while the AG force manoeuvres back. Space battles that occur outside of areas the prevent jumps could get complicated.