Total $Tax Rates$ In The Honorverse? ...

drothgery wrote:I don't think Manticore had ever been involved a war with more than a handful of major engagements prior to the first Havenite War, unless the ongoing clashes with pirates in Silesia counts. The conflicts with the Free Brotherhood and Axelrod had only one major battle each I think, the San Martin War was very short (and I don't remember the timing on that, though it wasn't long after the Trevor's Star terminus was discovered), etc.

According to HoS, the San Martin war was 1752 PD.

I don't think people should underestimate the amount of money that comes into Manticore in junction fees. Something like, what, half of all interstellar trade goes through the Manticoran Wormhole Junction?

I'd say the tax rates on the citizens of the SK/EM were fairly high. Even with the Junction fees, paying for the build up to the war and the war itself is horrifically expensive. The Junction fees have also risen considerably, but as long as they are not raised too high, people will still use the junction. If I was to guess how much the SK/EM population paid in taxes, I'd put it at close to 50%, with possible somewhat higher for the wealthier people. Put it too high and the population will start to leave, so it is a delicate balancing match.

I'm not sure what the tax rate of RH would be. Lower than it was since the war is over and economic activity is on the rise. The PRH likely had a very high tax rate. I remember reading that corporations had to pay something like 80% taxes and individuals up to 90%. Insanely expensive, but popular by the demagogues and PR spinners who basically bribed the middle and poor class by taking it from the wealthiest people and corporations.

Grayson likely has very high taxes. They are a single planet with more SD(P)s than the SEM has atm. That's very expensive to man and maintain, let alone replace. Plus they and the SEM have to rebuild their construction infrastructure.

The SL, unknown. I know it is set at a static limit by the constitution. Changing that would require amending it, so unless the permanent undersecretaries of finance and taxation finagle something with additional taxes that are to be paid, it's unlikely to change. The only other alternative I see is the member worlds willingly increasing their own taxes and sending the excess to the SL to use.

No information on the Andermani Empire or anyone else.

Zakharra wrote:I'd say the tax rates on the citizens of the SK/EM were fairly high. Even with the Junction fees, paying for the build up to the war and the war itself is horrifically expensive. The Junction fees have also risen considerably, but as long as they are not raised too high, people will still use the junction. If I was to guess how much the SK/EM population paid in taxes, I'd put it at close to 50%, with possible somewhat higher for the wealthier people. Put it too high and the population will start to leave, so it is a delicate balancing match.

I'm not sure what the tax rate of RH would be. Lower than it was since the war is over and economic activity is on the rise. The PRH likely had a very high tax rate. I remember reading that corporations had to pay something like 80% taxes and individuals up to 90%. Insanely expensive, but popular by the demagogues and PR spinners who basically bribed the middle and poor class by taking it from the wealthiest people and corporations.

Grayson likely has very high taxes. They are a single planet with more SD(P)s than the SEM has atm. That's very expensive to man and maintain, let alone replace. Plus they and the SEM have to rebuild their construction infrastructure.

The SL, unknown. I know it is set at a static limit by the constitution. Changing that would require amending it, so unless the permanent undersecretaries of finance and taxation finagle something with additional taxes that are to be paid, it's unlikely to change. The only other alternative I see is the member worlds willingly increasing their own taxes and sending the excess to the SL to use.

No information on the Andermani Empire or anyone else.

I'm not sure how the tax thing plays out. Fairly early in the series, EOH I think, Manticore went to progressive taxation as a wartime measure. But you do have those junction fees providing cushion against an all out sacrifice. Then too, the tax base embraced 3+ billion people with all of the economic activity that implies. So what percentage of the GDP would the RMN actually absorb?

Don

n7axw; excellent point. As a historical note here on planet Earth back in about 1989-90 or so, just before the economic collapse of the Soviet Union, some western analyists suggested that the Soviets were in fact spending over 50% of their total economic product on defense and defense related expendures. They could not endure that and they collapsed.

You can all see where I am going with this. But remember ... it is just very good Space Opera Science Fiction and leave it at that. Taxes must have been crushing for Manticore during the first and second wars. No way around it. How can just one kingdom survive against many well industrialized Haven planets? The real answer is that they could not.

Now flash forward a little bit to the GA vs the Sollies. In my humble view, the GA is doomed. They could shoot off ALL of their neat long range missiles and only slightly dent the Sollies. All the Sollies have to do is get their econcomic act together, fight to win and the GA is doomed. I see no way around this. It is a matter of quantity vs quality ... and taxes.

Respectfully. HB. Also hopefully RFC will read all of this stuff and get some good ideas for future Honorverse novels which would be so cool.

HB of CJ wrote:n7axw; excellent point. As a historical note here on planet Earth back in about 1989-90 or so, just before the economic collapse of the Soviet Union, some western analyists suggested that the Soviets were in fact spending over 50% of their total economic product on defense and defense related expendures. They could not endure that and they collapsed.

You can all see where I am going with this. But remember ... it is just very good Space Opera Science Fiction and leave it at that. Taxes must have been crushing for Manticore during the first and second wars. No way around it. How can just one kingdom survive against many well industrialized Haven planets? The real answer is that they could not.

It's a question of how well you can mobilize resources. Haven had a vast population that was poorly educated, incapable of much participation in a modern economy, and sucking up resources from it on the dole. Haven's crude, inefficient industry could build a crude, inefficient fleet with what it had left over from feeding the Dolists.

Manticore, by contrast, had a highly educated populace that was working, and an income base that included not just their output but - much more than that - trade income from the entirety of the Solarian League, the size of which at lest you're quite right to emphasize. Productivity per capita was incomparably higher, and it was feeding a high-tech industry building a high-tech navy.

Now flash forward a little bit to the GA vs the Sollies. In my humble view, the GA is doomed. They could shoot off ALL of their neat long range missiles and only slightly dent the Sollies. All the Sollies have to do is get their econcomic act together, fight to win and the GA is doomed. I see no way around this. It is a matter of quantity vs quality ... and taxes.

Taxes. The League can't raise them. The League - not the system governments composing it, the League - is funded by trade and service fees. The trade income is down the toilet with the withdrawal of Manticoran hulls and the shutting of the wormhole network; the service fees from the protectorates are going up in smoke as the Verge goes up in flames.

Fighting to win - who's going to fight for the Solarian League? It inspires no loyalty, no patriotism. Its military is composed of Byngs and Crandalls on one side, and Palanes, Harahaps, and Roszaks on the other. There's a thin little cream of Thurgoods and al-Fanudahis in there, but even then, they're not going to die for the League, or ask their crews to, if they've a choice. And the GA at least is good about giving them that choice, and the same choice to the member systems - leave the League, leave its service, and the landing will be soft.

I'm sure two thousand often advanced, heavily populated, well educated and industrialized systems could kick the Grand Alliance around. If they cared to. They won't.

One big problem the Sollies will have is that the Sollie League is just ... so big! Communications are limited to the fastest ship. Even if they would quickly change the law and greatly increase taxes, could they in the time they have?

Reconsider the situation in the USA just before we got into WW2. Small military. Low taxes. Isolationist. How quickly that changed after Pearl Harbor! We went from a farming nation to a war material nation in about 12 months.

Could the Sollies raise taxes and get into war production that quickly? Dunno. In WW2 we built the B29 bomber from scratch in less than 2 years. In 2.75 years it was leveling Japan. That project cost more than the Manhatton Project A bombs.

One nation, the USA, built lots of war stuff. What was amazing is that all happened concurrently together. Everything came together. Taxes and War Bonds were the key. Could the Sollies do the same thing ... against the GA? And at what tax rate?

HB of CJ wrote:Could the Sollies raise taxes and get into war production that quickly? Dunno. In WW2 we built the B29 bomber from scratch in less than 2 years. In 2.75 years it was leveling Japan. That project cost more than the Manhatton Project A bombs.

But that is one thing that we KNOW the Solarian League cannot do. Quoting http://infodump.thefifthimperium.com/en ... gton/200/1:

the League government's funding sources are specifically limited by the League Constitution... and direct taxation of League citizens is expressly prohibited.

Well, it is excellent Science Fiction. In the excellent books we understand that the Sollies will die before raising their taxes ... because they can not. My thinking was what if that naggy fact was not true? Increased taxes. Quickly. Then what? HB

HB of CJ wrote:Well, it is excellent Science Fiction. In the excellent books we understand that the Sollies will die before raising their taxes ... because they can not. My thinking was what if that naggy fact was not true? Increased taxes. Quickly. Then what? HB

The Solarian League would quickly cease to exist as member states refused the unconstitutional act and withdrew.