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Compensators, Wallers, and tonnage

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Re: Compensators, Wallers, and tonnage
Post by Bill Woods   » Mon May 25, 2015 7:28 pm

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Somtaaw wrote:Dedicated Army transport built around the new, oversized SD would be able to not only carry full Army division(s), but also have plenty of room to load in orbital strike packages, reducing need for escorts to mere DDs. Currently, Michelle Henke sent half a CA squadron to babysit the freighters (mil-spec speed, but still freighters) that carried the Marines to whatever planet it was (Moebius?)

Mobius. (Dunno what happened to the umlaut.)

Henke sent half a CA squadron, a DD squadron, and a CLAC as the base for a Marine battalion.

An SD-sized transport might make sense, but using an SD design for the basis seems wrong. A transport has no business going where it would be exposed to the sort of fire an SD is expected to survive, so it doesn't need the armor and all the active defenses. Better to install habitable modules in freighters and give them a decent convoy escort.
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Imagined conversation:
Admiral [noting yet another Manty tech surprise]:
XO, what's the budget for the ONI?
Vice Admiral: I don't recall exactly, sir. Several billion quatloos.
Admiral: ... What do you suppose they did with all that money?
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Re: Compensators, Wallers, and tonnage
Post by kzt   » Mon May 25, 2015 8:09 pm

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Somtaaw wrote:But giving them their ammo storage back might be a damned good idea. Honor was shooting herself pretty dry when she was stationed at Sidemore. Giscard shot 3 squadrons dry in less than 30 minutes at... Solon I think? Battle of Manticore, Admiral Chin was definitely driving deeply into her pod storage when she flailed the crap out of Second Fleet.

Given that the mean lifetime in battle is about 8 minutes, worrying about ammo is pretty close to the last thing I would focus on.
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Re: Compensators, Wallers, and tonnage
Post by crewdude48   » Mon May 25, 2015 8:12 pm

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kzt wrote:Given that the mean lifetime in battle is about 8 minutes, worrying about ammo is pretty close to the last thing I would focus on.

Didn't Honor think something along the lines of "battles can last for hours or even days," when she was standing down her crew during HotQ?
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Re: Compensators, Wallers, and tonnage
Post by Carl   » Mon May 25, 2015 8:39 pm

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Didn't Honor think something along the lines of "battles can last for hours or even days," when she was standing down her crew during HotQ?


The environments changes a lot since then and that's not continuous firing. That's total battle time including maneuvers outside missiles range.

As far as the ammo capacity go's

As someone else says [pod layers allow unprecedented rates of fire.

A Nike only has 25% more total actual missiles than an Agemmenmon, but it yakes it 3 times longer to fire them all off. Te comparison at SD scales is similar or worse depending on the waller considered. Sollies for example without aegis refits get 60 missiles a minute out of their wallers. 56 with aegis. An SD(P) with Apollo spits out 240 a minute not counting the control missiles. An old style SD's rof isn't even the same postcode, even if the sollies are probably managing about half the best pre pod designs of manticore in rof terms).

Or a final example. Whilst it really would be a bad idea a CA(P) with a single pod rail rrolling Mk 16's would achive 40% againg as much the RoF as a Saganami C. or over half a Nike's output.
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Re: Compensators, Wallers, and tonnage
Post by wastedfly   » Mon May 25, 2015 9:27 pm

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Carl wrote:
Didn't Honor think something along the lines of "battles can last for hours or even days," when she was standing down her crew during HotQ?


The environments changes a lot since then and that's not continuous firing. That's total battle time including maneuvers outside missiles range.

As far as the ammo capacity go's

As someone else says [pod layers allow unprecedented rates of fire.

A Nike only has 25% more total actual missiles than an Agemmenmon, but it yakes it 3 times longer to fire them all off. Te comparison at SD scales is similar or worse depending on the waller considered. Sollies for example without aegis refits get 60 missiles a minute out of their wallers. 56 with aegis. An SD(P) with Apollo spits out 240 a minute not counting the control missiles. An old style SD's rof isn't even the same postcode, even if the sollies are probably managing about half the best pre pod designs of manticore in rof terms).

Or a final example. Whilst it really would be a bad idea a CA(P) with a single pod rail rrolling Mk 16's would achive 40% againg as much the RoF as a Saganami C. or over half a Nike's output.


RoF for podlayers is only dependent on the artificial limitation of control links. Once donkey/pod tractors were introduced anyways. A BC'P could have only 1 pod port and still destroy anything in its path as it generally requires 30-60minutes to begin an engagement. If you are smart you always keep a couple pods externally for a surprise "visit", but otherwise in 30 minutes, with only 1 Pod port, a BC'P could still dump 150 pods and have them tractored to its hull, or half of its allotment ready for an engagement.

Making the BC'P verses BCL debate pointless when on extended patrol. BCL is dead long before it runs out of ammunition against a BCP even if both are limited to MK-16G instead of BC'Ps ability for MDM.

Oh yes, BCP(RMN/GSN) also has more CM tubes than BCL in RMN service, so it can defend itself better as well. I think someone(s) dropped the ball on that one.

If added tonnage to BCP design so the Keyhole does not utterly weaken the ship then it really becomes pointless. Now add a ventral/dorsal Pod deployment ports both forward and aft and take two ports out of its rear, the pod core vulnerability vanishes. Break up that pod core so it does not weaken the ship. Easily doable unless someone is purposefully trying to find ways to make such a ship inferior from a damage perspective. Meaning the fusion rooms go BACK to where they should be instead of stuffed all into the exact same portion of the ship.

I know, everyone will compare Aggy to BC'L, but such a comparison is absurd as one is not even in the same ballpark tonnage wise and RFC's posts regarding adding tonnage to make an "equal" evaluation are absurd from an engineering point of view. But, this is his universe, so even though the reasoning is completely illogical from an engineering perspective(like his control links) that is canon...

But, the RMN/GSN/RHN would have to "invent" beamed microwave power to a pod... along with pod grab bars for attaching to the hull of the ship. I know, scary stuff. HIGH TECH. No wait, that is 50's tech. Sure is advanced...
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Re: Compensators, Wallers, and tonnage
Post by HB of CJ   » Tue May 26, 2015 12:13 am

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Excellent subject and thank you. Time and technology. Historical aspects. Over time navy ships tend to creep up in size and cost. Eventually the smaller void is filled all over again with smaller ships and the cycle continues. A cyclic thing?

Take the sailing ship navel era here on Earth. Ship size creeped upwards. Guns got better. Sail plans better. Better hull designs. The tech took over. Steam screw ships. Iron and later steel armor plating. Sails quickly disappeared.

Now our USN destroyers are the size of medium AAA light cruisers of WW2. The Knox and Perry class frigates were the size of big WW2 destroyers. This probably is a natural evolution. Function determines size. Tech drives it.

Eventually this trend may reverse. We are already seeing drone tech. Perhaps non piloted combat aircraft are the future? Weapons get smarter, smaller and better. Future ships may be much smaller? The supercarrier is doomed? Dunno.

HB of CJ (old coot) Junior Captain
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Re: Compensators, Wallers, and tonnage
Post by wastedfly   » Tue May 26, 2015 12:37 am

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HB of CJ wrote:Excellent subject and thank you. Time and technology. Historical aspects. Over time navy ships tend to creep up in size and cost. Eventually the smaller void is filled all over again with smaller ships and the cycle continues. A cyclic thing?

Take the sailing ship navel era here on Earth. Ship size creeped upwards. Guns got better. Sail plans better. Better hull designs. The tech took over. Steam screw ships. Iron and later steel armor plating. Sails quickly disappeared.

Now our USN destroyers are the size of medium AAA light cruisers of WW2. The Knox and Perry class frigates were the size of big WW2 destroyers. This probably is a natural evolution. Function determines size. Tech drives it.

Eventually this trend may reverse. We are already seeing drone tech. Perhaps non piloted combat aircraft are the future? Weapons get smarter, smaller and better. Future ships may be much smaller? The supercarrier is doomed? Dunno.

HB of CJ (old coot) Junior Captain


Weight of airplanes is going up, not down. Super carrier is alive and well. More damage resistant as well.
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Re: Compensators, Wallers, and tonnage
Post by Carl   » Tue May 26, 2015 12:47 am

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@Wastedfly: Assuming you'll always have time to roll as many pods before firing as you like is a dangerous assumption. We've seen this isn't true time and time again. (And that's just one issue i can see).

I do agree however comparing current manticoran BC(P)'s to current BC(L)'s is bad, the BC(L) has a 40% tonnage advantage which radically alters things and i've allready stated my issues with the engineering aspects of the current BC(P) drawings.

Not sure what some of your others points are referring to though.
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Re: Compensators, Wallers, and tonnage
Post by wastedfly   » Tue May 26, 2015 1:36 am

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Carl wrote:@Wastedfly: Assuming you'll always have time to roll as many pods before firing as you like is a dangerous assumption. We've seen this isn't true time and time again. (And that's just one issue i can see).

I do agree however comparing current manticoran BC(P)'s to current BC(L)'s is bad, the BC(L) has a 40% tonnage advantage which radically alters things and i've allready stated my issues with the engineering aspects of the current BC(P) drawings.

Not sure what some of your others points are referring to though.


While I will not claim the most concise verbage around... :oops: :oops: :oops: Figured the rest was fairly self explanatory and was rather pointed towards your first paragraph. Pods have built in tractors these days... ;) But, so you do not have to start the micro fusion plant, use the tractors already on the ship, and simply attach to ship and run around with em externally for quick firing. Only requires a tiny bit o' beamed power to remain on standby.
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Re: Compensators, Wallers, and tonnage
Post by Rob the Fiend   » Tue May 26, 2015 3:55 am

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crewdude48 wrote:
kzt wrote:Given that the mean lifetime in battle is about 8 minutes, worrying about ammo is pretty close to the last thing I would focus on.

Didn't Honor think something along the lines of "battles can last for hours or even days," when she was standing down her crew during HotQ?



That was when both sides lined up in walls, and tried to get into laser/graser distance, covering behind their "interlocked" impeller wedges. :geek:

Then someone started building much better missiles. :twisted:
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