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Sharks, Spiders and Pod Layyers

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Re: Sharks, Spiders and Pod Layyers
Post by thinkstoomuch   » Sat Feb 07, 2015 2:50 pm

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kzt wrote:The explanation is that these are much more expensive to buy, require significantly more maintenance (which means more crewmen), and require other upgrades to other ship systems. I tend to find this less than convincing, as a 40% speed increase is roughly the same as having 40% more ships. As the operating costs are portrayed as fairly low, the governing costs would be the bank note on the ship. So unless the hyperdrive upgrade costs something like >50% of the cost of the entire ship (really?) it seems like a money maker.

Economics isn't the strongest point of the Honorverse.


Unless of course you also lose a significant portion of the cargo capacity.

For example as to the impeller upgrade. Trojan Horse ships just turned the aft taper's cargo hold into a pod deployment point installing the rails was trivial for 300 pods. To do the same with the "military" drive requires a whole bunch of redesign as to how the impeller room is laid out. That whole cargo area is non-existent the drive mostly takes up all the room. Yes there are weapons and such but from the old drawings (pre-HoS) they were a much smaller. The weapons in the aft hammerhead (to gain volume) didn't shrink all that much

If the installation cost is 20% more than a "civilian" spec drive component. If you lose 20% of the cargo capacity. If maintenance costs increase 20%. If crew costs increase 200%. If ... well hopefully you get the idea. A few million dollars here, a few million dollars there, pretty soon you are talking real money. :-)

Pretty soon your railroad is losing money to some trucker who can deliver right to the store. <shrug>

Note numbers in the previous paragraph are just drawn out of the air. We really don't have much hard data to go on.

In fairness 40% faster is low. A real number as of 1903 or so would be anywhere up to ~300% faster most merchant ships max ~1089c and warships ~3000c. According to the missing CD figures on Joe's site. JNMTC numbers (from IEH) were enough to get to the eta band or about 1794.5c a ~65% improvement.

Another data point is to get streak capability you need to double the size of the hyper generator (at least for the Alignment) for 2 bands no blooming clue as to the cost.

Hopefully all this makes some kind of sense. :lol:

Have fun,
T2M

PS for those interested the JNMTC info paragraph in IEH chapter 7.

The Joint Navy Military Transport Command, composed of midsized ships and normally assigned to the delivery of high-priority, time-critical cargoes (or delivery to potential combat hot spots), was the result. And as part of the same move to speed and streamline the transportation process, the ships designated for JNMTC use had been taken in hand by navy shipyards—Manticoran or Grayson, as available slips permitted—for overhaul. Time was too tight for their civilian grade inertial compensators and impellers to be altered, but they’d received light sidewalls and missile defense systems, upgraded sensors and rudimentary electronic warfare systems, and military hyper generators to permit them to reach as high as the eta bands. Since most merchantmen were designed to cruise no higher than the delta bands, their up-rated generators virtually doubled the sustained apparent velocity JNMTC ships could attain.
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Q: “How can something be worth more than it costs? Isn’t everything ‘worth’ what it costs?”
A: “No. That’s just the price. ...
Christopher Anvil from Top Line in "War Games"
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Re: Sharks, Spiders and Pod Layyers
Post by Kizarvexis   » Sat Feb 07, 2015 2:53 pm

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n7axw wrote:Thanks to Vince for that quote from Mission of Honor. It was a quite a bit more comprehensive than the one I offered from SftS...

Also thanks to you guys who responded to my question. I may well have a defective picture of how this works. So let me try again with my question. We know that the spider grabs the hyper wall which would be the alpha wall in n space.

But what happens when the ship moves away from the hyper wall to move toward a planet? How far away from the hyper wall can a ship get for the spider and still be able to reach and grab?

Don


I think you are confusing the hyper wall and the hyper limit. Hyperspace touches on all normal space everywhere. The first band (layer) of hyperspace is the alpha band and each band further into hyperspace is the next greek letter. You need a hypergenerator to enter and leave hyperspace and each band in hyperspace. Spider drive ships use their node to grab the hyperspace wall to crawl along. The hyper limit does not affect this.

The hyper limit is the edge of a sphere where a sufficiently large mass, like a star or large planet, means you can not enter hyperspace. If you go to far deep into the hyper limit in hyperspace you go splat. Just inside the hyper limit will let you come out, but bad things happen.
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Re: Sharks, Spiders and Pod Layyers
Post by thinkstoomuch   » Sat Feb 07, 2015 2:56 pm

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Just a footnote to my previous post.

No I don't want RFC to spend the time to explain all the economics to me.

If I did I would read the 1636: The Viennese Waltz. Oh wait I did but that was associated writers. An expansion of the Grantville Gazette's Barbie stories. :lol: :lol:

Have fun all,
T2M
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Q: “How can something be worth more than it costs? Isn’t everything ‘worth’ what it costs?”
A: “No. That’s just the price. ...
Christopher Anvil from Top Line in "War Games"
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Re: Sharks, Spiders and Pod Layyers
Post by Vince   » Sat Feb 07, 2015 3:17 pm

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n7axw wrote:Thanks to Vince for that quote from Mission of Honor. It was a quite a bit more comprehensive than the one I offered from SftS...

Also thanks to you guys who responded to my question. I may well have a defective picture of how this works. So let me try again with my question. We know that the spider grabs the hyper wall which would be the alpha wall in n space.

But what happens when the ship moves away from the hyper wall to move toward a planet? How far away from the hyper wall can a ship get for the spider and still be able to reach and grab?

Don

Don't confuse the alpha wall (the interface between normal space and the alpha hyper band--the alpha band being the lowest hyper band) with the hyper limit. The alpha wall exists between normal space and the alpha hyper band everywhere in normal space. If it didn't, FTL communications would be impossible, and practical use of the impeller wedge would be much more costly (in terms of energy use) if not impossible (the impeller wedge bends the alpha wall).

The hyper limit is the minimum distance away from a gravitational point source in the Honorverse that a ship can translate into the alpha band of hyperspace from normal space, or translate from the alpha band of hyperspace to normal space.

The alpha wall is always available to a spider drive ship in normal space to latch onto. It doesn't matter if a spider drive ship is inside the hyper limit of a star or outside of it. In this respect it is like the impeller wedge, which can be used inside or outside of the hyper limit:
Mission of Honor, Chapter 9 wrote:In this instance, however, for reasons best known to itself—and, of course, Murphy—the GSN had elected to send an entire squadron of what looked like their version of the Manties’ Saganami-C-class heavy cruisers out to play halfway to the hyper limit and due north of Yeltsin’s Star.
It wouldn’t have pissed Sung off so much if they hadn’t decided to do it at this particular moment. Well, and in this particular spot. The other five ships of his task group were headed to meet Apparition for their last scheduled rendezvous, and unless Bogey Two changed vector, it was going to pass within less than five light-minutes of the rendezvous point.
And considerably closer than that to Apparition’s course as she headed towards that rendezvous.

...Snip...

“Should we alter course, Sir?”
The commodore looked up at the quiet question. Commander Travis Tsau, his chief of staff, stood at his shoulder and nodded towards the plot by Sung’s right knee.
“Bogey Two’s going to pass within two light-minutes of our base course at closest approach,” Tsau pointed out, still in that quiet voice.
“A point, Travis,” Sung replied with a thin smile, “of which I was already aware.”
“I know that, Sir.” Tsau was normally a bit stiffer than Schreiber, but he’d known Sung even longer, and he returned the commodore’s smile wryly. “On the other hand, part of my job is to bring little things like that to your attention. Just in case, you understand.”
“True.” Sung nodded, glanced back down at the plot, then drew a deep breath.
“We’ll hold our course,” he said then. “Without even the spider up, we should be nothing but a nice, quiet hole in space as far as they’re concerned. And, frankly, they’re already so close I’d just as soon leave the spider down. I know they’re not supposed to be able to detect it, but . . .”

...Snip...

And the fact that the spider’s signature flares as it comes up only makes that more likely, he reflected. The odds against anyone spotting it would still be enormous, but even so, they’d be a hell of a lot worse than the chance of anyone aboard Bogey Two noticing us if we just keep quietly coasting along.
At the same time, he knew exactly why Tsau had asked his question. However difficult a sensor target they might be for Bogey Two’s shipboard systems, the rules would change abruptly if the Grayson cruiser decided to deploy her own recon platforms. If she were to do that, and if the platforms got a good, close-range look at the aspect Apparition was keeping turned away from their mothership, the chance of detection went from abysmally low to terrifyingly high in very short order. Which meant what Sung was really doing was betting that the odds of the Grayson’s choosing to deploy recon platforms were lower than the odds of her shipboard systems detecting the spider’s activation flare if he maneuvered to avoid her.
Of course, even if we did try to crab away from her, it wouldn’t help a whole hell of a lot if she decided to launch platforms. All we’d really manage to do would be to move her target a bit farther away from her, and there’s a reason they call remote platforms remote, Rod.
Italics are the author's, boldface is my emphasis.

The fact that the Commodore Sung is discussing the potential maneuver using the spider drive of Apparition to move away from the GSN cruiser squadron--that was halfway inside the hyper limit--is evidence that the spider drive can be used inside the hyper limit.
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Re: Sharks, Spiders and Pod Layyers
Post by JeffEngel   » Sat Feb 07, 2015 3:26 pm

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kzt wrote:
munroburton wrote:Curious that merchants don't bother with 'military' level hyper generators, though. Being able to travel up to 40% faster would mean significantly more tons of cargo moved over any given time.

The explanation is that these are much more expensive to buy, require significantly more maintenance (which means more crewmen), and require other upgrades to other ship systems. I tend to find this less than convincing, as a 40% speed increase is roughly the same as having 40% more ships. As the operating costs are portrayed as fairly low, the governing costs would be the bank note on the ship. So unless the hyperdrive upgrade costs something like >50% of the cost of the entire ship (really?) it seems like a money maker.

Economics isn't the strongest point of the Honorverse.

40% more speed amounting to 40% more ships would assume that they spend about 0% of the time moving in-system, loading, unloading, and waiting for cargo, crew, orders, etc. If it's 40% more speed during, say, the 25% of their time spent moving through hyper - and using a bit more reaction mass too for the velocity to recover with the additional translations upward and downward - you get less than 10% more utility out of it in terms of units delivered per unit time and per unit cost.

I doubt the hypergenerator amounts to nearly that much up front, but it will likely mean more crew with more skills and more frequent replacement of more expensive parts. So it can add up.
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Re: Sharks, Spiders and Pod Layyers
Post by kzt   » Sat Feb 07, 2015 3:30 pm

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There are drawing I've seen at honorcon showing the relative sizes and locations of the reactor, hyperdrive and the cargo bay. The hyperdrive would have to be more then a million tons to make you lose 20% of cargo capacity, and it is not anything close to that. Unless you think that all SDs have a million ton hypergenerator, which isn't exactly supported by the text. It's big, but not big in relative terms. It's not a very big part of the enormous cavern that is an Honrverse freighter's cargo bay. The one where you could lose a Nimitz class aircraft carrier.

When I've got a multi-billion bank note on the ship, having to add 10 or 30 crew in order to get 50% more revenue is not a big deal. Just to pay the principle on a 5 billion 60 month note I have to generate 83 million profit every month. Even 100 crew added at 100,000 per year each only increases my operating costs by 1% or so of what I need to pay the bank for the ship.
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Re: Sharks, Spiders and Pod Layyers
Post by kzt   » Sat Feb 07, 2015 3:37 pm

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JeffEngel wrote:40% more speed amounting to 40% more ships would assume that they spend about 0% of the time moving in-system, loading, unloading, and waiting for cargo, crew, orders, etc. If it's 40% more speed during, say, the 25% of their time spent moving through hyper - and using a bit more reaction mass too for the velocity to recover with the additional translations upward and downward - you get less than 10% more utility out of it in terms of units delivered per unit time and per unit cost.

It takes, IIRC, maybe 4 hours from when a freighter crosses the wall till it's in orbit. It usually takes weeks in hyper to get to its destination. So no, the vast majority of the time is spent in hyper.

If you can't figure out how to effectively run your ships such that they are usually spending weeks to months in orbit after each trip then going faster is not going to help your real problem.
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Re: Sharks, Spiders and Pod Layyers
Post by SWM   » Sat Feb 07, 2015 4:05 pm

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kzt wrote:There are drawing I've seen at honorcon showing the relative sizes and locations of the reactor, hyperdrive and the cargo bay. The hyperdrive would have to be more then a million tons to make you lose 20% of cargo capacity, and it is not anything close to that. Unless you think that all SDs have a million ton hypergenerator, which isn't exactly supported by the text. It's big, but not big in relative terms. It's not a very big part of the enormous cavern that is an Honrverse freighter's cargo bay. The one where you could lose a Nimitz class aircraft carrier.

When I've got a multi-billion bank note on the ship, having to add 10 or 30 crew in order to get 50% more revenue is not a big deal. Just to pay the principle on a 5 billion 60 month note I have to generate 83 million profit every month. Even 100 crew added at 100,000 per year each only increases my operating costs by 1% or so of what I need to pay the bank for the ship.

Nobody has suggested that the hyper generator eats up a significant amount of the potential cargo space of a freighter.

Let us suppose that a freighter spends 75% of its time in hyperspace. That reduces your 40% benefit to 30%. Now, suppose you have to increase your crew from 30 to 35 to maintain the larger hyper generator. Then suppose that the military-grade generator costs 10 times as much, costs 5 times as much to maintain, and has to be replaced 5 times as often. Suppose it means an average of 1 or two days a month extra in the docks, maintaining or replacing the generator. Now how much extra is this military-grade equipment costing you? If you are hauling low profit-margin bulk goods which don't give bonuses for fast delivery, is it worth the cost?
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Re: Sharks, Spiders and Pod Layyers
Post by Kizarvexis   » Sat Feb 07, 2015 4:17 pm

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kzt wrote:There are drawing I've seen at honorcon showing the relative sizes and locations of the reactor, hyperdrive and the cargo bay. The hyperdrive would have to be more then a million tons to make you lose 20% of cargo capacity, and it is not anything close to that. Unless you think that all SDs have a million ton hypergenerator, which isn't exactly supported by the text. It's big, but not big in relative terms. It's not a very big part of the enormous cavern that is an Honrverse freighter's cargo bay. The one where you could lose a Nimitz class aircraft carrier.

When I've got a multi-billion bank note on the ship, having to add 10 or 30 crew in order to get 50% more revenue is not a big deal. Just to pay the principle on a 5 billion 60 month note I have to generate 83 million profit every month. Even 100 crew added at 100,000 per year each only increases my operating costs by 1% or so of what I need to pay the bank for the ship.


But how 'delicate' are military hyper generators. Do the components need to be replace vastly more often than regular hyper generators? How expensive are the parts? How much more does a military hyper generator cost than a regular hyper generator? Does going into the higher bands generate more wear like coming out of hyperspace off the elliptic? All DW has told us is that a lot of merchant ships don't use military hyper generators for economic reasons. Some or all of the reasons mentioned could be why they aren't used in all ships.
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Re: Sharks, Spiders and Pod Layyers
Post by n7axw   » Sat Feb 07, 2015 4:42 pm

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Hi Vince,

Thanks again. I did have my picture wrong. Hyper space then would be everyehere as would the hyper wall. What is often called the hyper wall is just the distance from a planet or a star that it is safe for a ship to enter or leave hyper space. Do I have that straight?

Funny. I've read that passage many times without getting that out of it. Must not have been posing the question, I guess.

Don
When any group seeks political power in God's name, both religion and politics are instantly corrupted.
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