Immensity of the universe... including the honorverse

Every CO in the RMN should be really focused on maintenance and economizing on node wear, because at this point there are no replacement parts. When your nodes are worn to the point where the ship cannot safely operate you need to park it. And there it will sit until the RMN has a source of parts and a repair ship free to install them, so avoiding that situation is a big deal.

I certainly do not get a feeling that this is what is going on.

kzt wrote:Every CO in the RMN should be really focused on maintenance and economizing on node wear, because at this point there are no replacement parts. When your nodes are worn to the point where the ship cannot safely operate you need to park it. And there it will sit until the RMN has a source of parts and a repair ship free to install them, so avoiding that situation is a big deal.

I certainly do not get a feeling that this is what is going on.

For Manticore, yes -- post Oyster Bay. Obviously prior to that, the REMF doing the paperwork in any Navy might argue with the ship drivers as to expense "afterwards", but the likelihood of getting ones attack force shot-to-s--- on the ecliptic is much higher, which is why Shannon went for the unorthodox approach in the Tourville raids. It seems like every attack AFTER those raids by both the RHN and the RMN would be "not on the ecliptic" for the same reasons.

That's why I think I am missing something, tactically.

SharkHunter wrote:

kzt wrote:Every CO in the RMN should be really focused on maintenance and economizing on node wear, because at this point there are no replacement parts. When your nodes are worn to the point where the ship cannot safely operate you need to park it. And there it will sit until the RMN has a source of parts and a repair ship free to install them, so avoiding that situation is a big deal.

I certainly do not get a feeling that this is what is going on.

For Manticore, yes -- post Oyster Bay. Obviously prior to that, the REMF doing the paperwork in any Navy might argue with the ship drivers as to expense "afterwards", but the likelihood of getting ones attack force shot-to-s--- on the ecliptic is much higher, which is why Shannon went for the unorthodox approach in the Tourville raids. It seems like every attack AFTER those raids by both the RHN and the RMN would be "not on the ecliptic" for the same reasons.

That's why I think I am missing something, tactically.

If it'd be SOP purely for surprise value, then it's no longer a surprise, and therefore no longer valuable. So it'd be something to consider only when it's not done often enough for people to allocate sensors to counter it.

JeffEngel wrote:

Sharkhunter wrote:For Manticore, yes -- post Oyster Bay. Obviously prior to that, the REMF doing the paperwork in any Navy might argue with the ship drivers as to expense "afterwards", but the likelihood of getting ones attack force shot-to-s--- on the ecliptic is much higher, which is why Shannon went for the unorthodox approach in the Tourville raids. It seems like every attack AFTER those raids by both the RHN and the RMN would be "not on the ecliptic" for the same reasons. That's why I think I am missing something, tactically.

If it'd be SOP purely for surprise value, then it's no longer a surprise, and therefore no longer valuable. So it'd be something to consider only when it's not done often enough for people to allocate sensors to counter it.

Disagree, though respectfully of course. Attacking above or below the ecliptic gets you (estimating) 120 degrees times the angle into the system which would increase the interception difficulty for a defending force by at least a level of magnitude. Let's say you've got about a 30 degree side to side best attack angle TIMES having to cover maybe 60 degrees either side of the ecliptic. Distance to the point in space you're attacking is lengthened some, but you're also above all the nasty bits like asteroids, civilian ships, most sensors, etc. and that seems like it would be a WITCH and a half to defend, even as a standard tactic.

I think that's why the Grayson admiral was worried about Masada, etc. slipping someone in the back door to attack Grayson and why the FTL recon drones were so nifty.

SharkHunter wrote:Disagree, though respectfully of course. Attacking above or below the ecliptic gets you (estimating) 120 degrees times the angle into the system which would increase the interception difficulty for a defending force by at least a level of magnitude. Let's say you've got about a 30 degree side to side best attack angle TIMES having to cover maybe 60 degrees either side of the ecliptic. Distance to the point in space you're attacking is lengthened some, but you're also above all the nasty bits like asteroids, civilian ships, most sensors, etc. and that seems like it would be a WITCH and a half to defend, even as a standard tactic.

I think that's why the Grayson admiral was worried about Masada, etc. slipping someone in the back door to attack Grayson and why the FTL recon drones were so nifty.

I'm not at all sure what you are trying to say here. What do you mean by "a 30 degree side to side best attack angle"?

Being above asteroids and civilian ships doesn't mean anything. Space is big, and you'd be lucky to come within a few light-seconds of any sizeable ship or piece or rock coming in along the ecliptic.

It is no harder to intercept a ship coming in from above or below the ecliptic than it is to intercept them coming in along the ecliptic. Ship accelerations are huge, and ship velocities are many orders of magnitude greater than the orbital velocity of a planet. At 600 gees, it takes a ship only 5 seconds to make up for the orbital velocity of the Earth. So coming in off the ecliptic makes a difference of only a few seconds in how easy it is for the defenders to intercept you.

SWM wrote:It is no harder to intercept a ship coming in from above or below the ecliptic than it is to intercept them coming in along the ecliptic. Ship accelerations are huge, and ship velocities are many orders of magnitude greater than the orbital velocity of a planet. At 600 gees, it takes a ship only 5 seconds to make up for the orbital velocity of the Earth. So coming in off the ecliptic makes a difference of only a few seconds in how easy it is for the defenders to intercept you.

And for that matter, where it's relevant, coming in off the ecliptic guarantees that the enemy will immediately take your hyper footprint as a that of a military force - harmless visitors won't come in that way. Sure, your acceleration, number, formation, and tonnages may give that away quickly too, but not always, and not if you play around with wedge strength and/or restrain accel in some cases.

JeffEngel wrote:

SWM wrote:It is no harder to intercept a ship coming in from above or below the ecliptic than it is to intercept them coming in along the ecliptic. Ship accelerations are huge, and ship velocities are many orders of magnitude greater than the orbital velocity of a planet. At 600 gees, it takes a ship only 5 seconds to make up for the orbital velocity of the Earth. So coming in off the ecliptic makes a difference of only a few seconds in how easy it is for the defenders to intercept you.

And for that matter, where it's relevant, coming in off the ecliptic guarantees that the enemy will immediately take your hyper footprint as a that of a military force - harmless visitors won't come in that way. Sure, your acceleration, number, formation, and tonnages may give that away quickly too, but not always, and not if you play around with wedge strength and/or restrain accel in some cases.

Remember that visitors to Hades were required to come in from off the ecliptic as an additional identification measure, as it was the abnormal approach vector.

SWM wrote:

SharkHunter wrote:Disagree, though respectfully of course. Attacking above or below the ecliptic gets you (estimating) 120 degrees times the angle into the system which would increase the interception difficulty for a defending force by at least a level of magnitude. Let's say you've got about a 30 degree side to side best attack angle TIMES having to cover maybe 60 degrees either side of the ecliptic. Distance to the point in space you're attacking is lengthened some, but you're also above all the nasty bits like asteroids, civilian ships, most sensors, etc. and that seems like it would be a WITCH and a half to defend, even as a standard tactic.

I think that's why the Grayson admiral was worried about Masada, etc. slipping someone in the back door to attack Grayson and why the FTL recon drones were so nifty.

I'm not at all sure what you are trying to say here. What do you mean by "a 30 degree side to side best attack angle"?

Being above asteroids and civilian ships doesn't mean anything. Space is big, and you'd be lucky to come within a few light-seconds of any sizeable ship or piece or rock coming in along the ecliptic.

It is no harder to intercept a ship coming in from above or below the ecliptic than it is to intercept them coming in along the ecliptic. Ship accelerations are huge, and ship velocities are many orders of magnitude greater than the orbital velocity of a planet. At 600 gees, it takes a ship only 5 seconds to make up for the orbital velocity of the Earth. So coming in off the ecliptic makes a difference of only a few seconds in how easy it is for the defenders to intercept you.

Valid points, but orbital velocity of earth is not super relevant to my thinking, detection and interception in-time is.
Sensors out at the hyper limit have to be on a MUCH bigger circumference, in fact, it's closer to a billion KM for SOL, so coming in above hi/lo, etc. forces a much bigger sensor deployment, for early detection at all. For example, if the LACS in the second attack in Operation Buttercup had ghosted in above the ecliptic, I don't think they would have had to worry about detection by the destroyer screen at all, except in capital/super-nodal worlds. I think...

SWM wrote:

SharkHunter wrote:Disagree, though respectfully of course. Attacking above or below the ecliptic gets you (estimating) 120 degrees times the angle into the system which would increase the interception difficulty for a defending force by at least a level of magnitude....

I think that's why the Grayson admiral was worried about Masada, etc. slipping someone in the back door to attack Grayson and why the FTL recon drones were so nifty.

I'm not at all sure what you are trying to say here. What do you mean by "a 30 degree side to side best attack angle"?

--snip--
The star has 360 degrees around it. When you're attacking towards a planet, with sensor coverage on the ecliptic a la Fearless in Basilisk, Hexapuma in Nuncio, etc. most attacks would be likely to come in on the planet within say, 15 degrees of the least time approach; that's my 30 degress

Actually, Nuncio is a great example. Granted, Clinget, etc. were operating with impunity, saving node wear yada yada because they had no idea Hexapuma was there, but say they had an idea there was SOME warship there. Had the Anhur, etc. come in far enough above or below the ecliptic, HMS Hexapuma would have never seen any of the three ships at all even with FTL recon drones [Terekhov, etc. praise Helen's trick with the drones that caught them even on the ecliptic], because the ships would have gone ballistic before detection. So I think most warships come in on the ecliptic because it's SOP, but not exactly smart SOP if your ships are fully intent from the word go on attacking anything useful.

SharkHunter wrote:Valid points, but orbital velocity of earth is not super relevant to my thinking, detection and interception in-time is.
Sensors out at the hyper limit have to be on a MUCH bigger circumference, in fact, it's closer to a billion KM for SOL, so coming in above hi/lo, etc. forces a much bigger sensor deployment, for early detection at all. For example, if the LACS in the second attack in Operation Buttercup had ghosted in above the ecliptic, I don't think they would have had to worry about detection by the destroyer screen at all, except in capital/super-nodal worlds. I think...

I see. My counter is that most systems do in fact have those sensors off the ecliptic as well as along the ecliptic. Perhaps not as many, so they may not get as good a read on exactly what the incoming ships look like, but enough.

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