More: "old ship use" for armchair admirals

fallsfromtrees wrote:Okay. Looking up the information for a Gryphon class SD (which is probably comparable to a Scientist class SL SD in size) we get a size of 1371 x 199 x 185 meters. Averaging the two smaller dimensions we get about 190 meters in average diameter or about 95 meters in radius.
The circumference is therefore about 600 meters, and again assuming 60 RPM spin rate, we get 600 meters/second for v. This gives us an acceleration of 3789m/sec2 or approximately 386 gs. Not sufficient - Try 120 RPM. That will give a v of 1200 m/s, and an accel of 15150 m/s2 or 1546 gs. That should be sufficient.

Actually we know from their displacement (6.8 mtons) that they should be closer in size to an old Majestic (6.75 mtons; 1,278 x 185 x 173 meters) or Gladiator-class (6.85 mtons; 1,284 x 186 x 173 meters) DN.

Still, not that far off your numbers.

Jonathan_S wrote:

fallsfromtrees wrote:Okay. Looking up the information for a Gryphon class SD (which is probably comparable to a Scientist class SL SD in size) we get a size of 1371 x 199 x 185 meters. Averaging the two smaller dimensions we get about 190 meters in average diameter or about 95 meters in radius.
The circumference is therefore about 600 meters, and again assuming 60 RPM spin rate, we get 600 meters/second for v. This gives us an acceleration of 3789m/sec2 or approximately 386 gs. Not sufficient - Try 120 RPM. That will give a v of 1200 m/s, and an accel of 15150 m/s2 or 1546 gs. That should be sufficient.

Actually we know from their displacement (6.8 mtons) that they should be closer in size to an old Majestic (6.75 mtons; 1,278 x 185 x 173 meters) or Gladiator-class (6.85 mtons; 1,284 x 186 x 173 meters) DN.

Still, not that far off your numbers.

Okay. Use 180 meter for the diameter instead of 190. That gives a v of 565m/s for 60 rpm, and an accel of 3547 m/s^2 or 361 Gs. At 120 rpm, its about 1447 Gs. Good enough?

Sweet someone else with an engineering bent willing to do basic mathematics other than myself.

Now you guys know why satellites reaction thrusters are so important. Without them, they literally precess themselves to pieces built up by gravitational tides from the moon/sun and atmosphere for LEO sats.

n7axw wrote:If you are going to use them, I think you have to use them "as is" providing some support by supplying traing cadres for local crews, maintanence, etc.

I don't think that a deeper commitment would be appropriate for the GA. They really don't have the personnel to spare for an idea that is at best marginal.

Don

--------------------

I see a large market for processing and processed scrap in Manticore and Talbott / Spindle. The industrious Grayson's have probably already collected the scrap in their system for re-processing.

-- Stewart

Not touching the "spin the ship" thread with an SD length pole, but it was fun reading. As far as the folks who pointed out that the GA wouldn't be in the position of building my tactical abortion, but I specified all of those things in my initial setup, no yard space to repair the ship, etc.

It's "fan-fic" y'all, it doesn't have to fit perfectly with the existing GA universe. My goal of the setup was to trigger -- for the fun of it -- a discussion on using a ship like that out in a similar role to how Wayfarer was used for piracy suppression in Honor Among Enemies.

It is a given that any Manticoran SD will beat the holy hell out of most non-GA navies; it is also a given that any Grand Alliance CLAC can carry enough LACs for force projection to dominate any single system. It is also a given that emplaced system defense pods and LACs make any GA system nearly impregnable against current SLN forces. As the war front expands however, the RMN is not going to be able to garrison every system, nor do they want that much Manticoran tech within grab range if the SLN does manage to cobble together enough force to make a fight of it.

But Frontier Fleet isn't single ship piracy nor even a system like Marsh taken over by Warnicke et al. They would mostly be operating like Giscard's Second fleet "times ten", to bully the Verge systems into not-blinking towards secession, and at the same time trying to force the RMN and GA to commit ships to defend vulnerable targets.

Take Meyers for example. It's the headquarters system for the Madras sector, and Tenth Fleet mostly left to go pound Mesa, although when they got there, the MAN was long gone. For the sake of discussion, let's assume there was a timeline that allowed Frontier Fleet to jump on one of the systems in the Madras Sector which has now gone over to Grand Alliance control, and that Frontier Fleet intends to use that system starting to build a commerce raiding and eventually attack front wedge agains Meyers.

We have one ship -- our HMS Chimera II. Let's plan on it's capabilities (you decide the force mix), with our WeberNet BuShips design team arguing details, and launch this sucker against an adequate threat. Oh yeah, you get to specify what the adequate threat might be, and we can beat that to death also. Fun or no? Let's play, y'all.

SharkHunter wrote:We have one ship -- our HMS Chimera II. Let's plan on it's capabilities (you decide the force mix), with our WeberNet BuShips design team arguing details, and launch this sucker against an adequate threat. Oh yeah, you get to specify what the adequate threat might be, and we can beat that to death also. Fun or no? Let's play, y'all.

No fun. Because here's the thing: We already know that the idea of building a CLAC/Podnought hybrid is dead from the start. Everything it can do, a small selection of already existing craft can do better. We also know that there is no way in hell for the only people capable of building such a thing to seriously consider doing so, HMS Wayfarer notwithstanding.

Speculations in the Honorverse boil down to figuring out how to address a given situation with the tools in hand, not making up an arbitrary situation and then inventing a solution for it (also known in these circles as the "Skimper method").

Let's reiterate the objections towards a hybrid ship:
1. Structural issues. The design requirements for CLACs and conventional ships are diametrically opposed, a tendency that becomes more pronounced as you compare CLACs and SD(P)s.
2. Logistics issues. Both LAC and Pod carry capacity are competing for the same ressources. We already know that Podlayers below the wall are a dead end; they do not have a useful endurance either in fleet combat or extended patrols.
3. (Ironically) Lack of versatility. Any given ship in the RMN OrBat can be deployed successfully in both Patrol and Fleet settings. A ship that can only do Patrol duty is therefore not desirable.
4. Wayfarer and her sisters were clear cases of "Needs must when the devil drives". They were only launched because the ships that would normally be put on antipiracy patrols were needed elsewhere; a BatCruRon would have been able to perform the same duties more efficiently. Using them as a pattern to base purpose-built ships on when you could use the same design and yard capacity for better things is idiotic.

Basically, what I'm saying is that these hybrid ships would take a building slot for a Superdreadnought, while not being anywhere near as usable as one. If given the choice between them, and the equivalent weight of Saganami-Cs, I know what I would go for.

SharkHunter wrote:Not touching the "spin the ship" thread with an SD length pole, but it was fun reading. As far as the folks who pointed out that the GA wouldn't be in the position of building my tactical abortion, but I specified all of those things in my initial setup, no yard space to repair the ship, etc.

It's "fan-fic" y'all, it doesn't have to fit perfectly with the existing GA universe. My goal of the setup was to trigger -- for the fun of it -- a discussion on using a ship like that out in a similar role to how Wayfarer was used for piracy suppression in Honor Among Enemies.

You should be careful saying things like that, because fan-fic is explicitly prohibited on this forum. I don't think the thread encroached on that rule, but you probably shouldn't describe it as fan-fic.

Speculative "what-if" threads have to tread somewhat carefully to avoid the fan-fic prohibition. Getting into specific details gets a bit fuzzy.

SWM wrote:

SharkHunter wrote:Not touching the "spin the ship" thread with an SD length pole, but it was fun reading. As far as the folks who pointed out that the GA wouldn't be in the position of building my tactical abortion, but I specified all of those things in my initial setup, no yard space to repair the ship, etc.

It's "fan-fic" y'all, it doesn't have to fit perfectly with the existing GA universe. My goal of the setup was to trigger -- for the fun of it -- a discussion on using a ship like that out in a similar role to how Wayfarer was used for piracy suppression in Honor Among Enemies.

You should be careful saying things like that, because fan-fic is explicitly prohibited on this forum. I don't think the thread encroached on that rule, but you probably shouldn't describe it as fan-fic.

Speculative "what-if" threads have to tread somewhat carefully to avoid the fan-fic prohibition. Getting into specific details gets a bit fuzzy.

My understaning of the fan-fic rule is that David would prefer it to not be here so he doesn't accidentally pick up someone's idea and use it in a story. Of course with the number of ideas that are floated around here, it is a virtual certainty he is going to acquire at least one "wow I never considered that" moment which he will use in a future story arc, either in the series it was mentioned in or one of the myriad other stories he is telling. Please note that I have no objections to this. If I should happen to mention something that he decides to file off the serial numbers and use, great. He is a far far better writer than I, and I will eventually get to have the enjoyment of his story. Although I can't speak for all of the denizens of this forum, I would suspect that the vast majority of people who hang out here think as I do. He he can use one of the ideas found here, please do. {Of course if he wanted to pay the person back, he could always post another snippet}

fallsfromtrees wrote:My understaning of the fan-fic rule is that David would prefer it to not be here so he doesn't accidentally pick up someone's idea and use it in a story.

Yes, that is the rationale for the rule. But the rule itself is broad: "Mr. Weber has requested that fan fiction NOT be posted." So usually we try to be careful about that. That may be why most posters in this thread responded to the technical aspects of the subject rather than what they would do with it. (Or maybe not; I certainly can't read people's minds over the internet. )

Again, I'm not suggesting that anything in this thread has approached the line. I'm just suggesting that you not encourage people to think of this as fan-fic.

The E wrote:
No fun. Because here's the thing: We already know that the idea of building a CLAC/Podnought hybrid is dead from the start. Everything it can do, a small selection of already existing craft can do better. We also know that there is no way in hell for the only people capable of building such a thing to seriously consider doing so, HMS Wayfarer notwithstanding.

Speculations in the Honorverse boil down to figuring out how to address a given situation with the tools in hand, not making up an arbitrary situation and then inventing a solution for it (also known in these circles as the "Skimper method").

[snip]
4. Wayfarer and her sisters were clear cases of "Needs must when the devil drives". They were only launched because the ships that would normally be put on antipiracy patrols were needed elsewhere; a BatCruRon would have been able to perform the same duties more efficiently. Using them as a pattern to base purpose-built ships on when you could use the same design and yard capacity for better things is idiotic.

I'd nitpick that for some of the anti-piracy work in Silesia (a special case that is no longer a factor) having parasite ships capable of covering more of the hyperlimit (while still being able to tackle your average pirate ship) gives you more flexibility than any single battlecruiser. (And there's no reason to assume a BatCruRon would operate in formation rather than scattering one ship per system like the AMC squadron did)

Of course, for that purpose, Warfarer would have been even better off with double the LAC count; even if it cost her a bit of broadside weight and some pod pay volume.


But I totally agree that the hybrids are a bad basis for designing a 'real' warship. And in most cases you get more usefulness and flexibility (not to mention survivabiliyt) from a squadron or division of smaller ships, or a CLAC paired with an SD(P), rather that one "Battlestar" that tries to do everything.