Henke — to do, or not to do.

lyonheart wrote:
***SNIP***

While the Agamemnon BCP's have been kept with the main fleets because they can carry Apollo's etc, the Nike is supposed to engage and destroy other BC's with at least some weapons' superiority, so having warheads that had such difficulty penetrating the typical BC's armor didn't and doesn't make sense, aside from the storyline drama; but I've always believed that question was probably made back when SoS first came out before I joined the bar, and whatever RFC's explanation was it didn't make it to the pearls, so I've held off pointing it out before.

Agamemnon BCP's can carry MDMs, but don't normally carry Apollo control missiles in its pods. The Agamemnon BCP is equipped with Keyhole I, not Keyhole II (Apollo FTL).

I think in the situation, Henke knew she could not allow the Ajax to fall into Haven hands intact. It had the newest weapon classes aboard and Manticore needed that technological edge in order to defeat Haven. Her best option would have been to scuttle after a full evacuation. However, her ship was so damaged that she would be able to get maybe half of the crew off before the Haven forces would be able to capture her ship, leaving her no time to set the scuttling charges. There was an option to get off all the crew she could and then scuttle it herself, but she was unwilling to blow up the ship herself with her crew aboard. So, she chose a suicide-by-cop approach. Got all the people she could off, then fired as many pods as she could in order to convince Haven to destroy the ship for her. It was a choice between a rock and a hard place. She knew the ship needed to be destroyed in order to keep Manticore's new tech secure, but that would kill half the crew. She couldn't morally press the button herself, so she set up a situation where Haven did it for her. It was a sucky situation, and RFC represented that very well. Sometimes being a commander means making decisions that no sane person ever wants to, including setting up a situation where you know people will die, but those deaths are needed in order to achieve a tactical or strategic victory.

cthia wrote:

SWM wrote:Hm. I could see a problem if Henke had deliberately waited to abandon ship until she could draw the enemy close enough to sucker punch them. In fact, that was exactly what she suddenly feared, at the last moment, that the Havenites might believe. But that wasn't what happened. Could that be part of your vague feeling?

Damn well could be. Yet truthfully, I just do not know. In a way, I am embarrassed by that act — identifying so closely with the Manties as I do. But I think it goes even deeper than that. I think the context of the textev — reading between the lines — supports a sympathetic enemy. Granted, the decision of a final massive launch was made "before" the possibility to abandon existed. But after the possibility presented itself, the Manties had time to belay that 'order.' I think my feeling that Admiral Redmont was concerned about Manty lives beyond what duty and war required and that many of his own spacer's lives were lost, because his actions may have been tempered and influenced because of compassion, hurts. Manty action should not invoke in my mind "you knew I was a snake when you took me in."

And yes ...yes. I am certain that the fact that Henke had second thoughts herself exacerbates my problem. I think that Henke knew in her heart that it bordered the morally wrong. I also feel that it is beneath an heir of the Manticoran throne to consider "that" particular move. It's how I feel anyways, for what ever my subconscious reasons. Honestly.

Snipped to save bandwidth.

The problem I have always had with this incident is the precedent it sets for future engagements.
How are other Haven commanders supposed to know if Manties are really abandoning ship or setting them up for an ambush?

If I were a Haven officer and I heard about this situation my initial reaction to ANY damaged Mantie ship suddenly launching "lifepods" or debris would be to lay some lovin on them. Just in case.
Little rough on anyone in the pods, but hey, how am I to know what they were REALLY up to?
Henke's actions have to possibility to endanger Manticore Navy personnel if future engagements because of the precedent they set.

Hi ExiledtoIA,

I'm sorry but this is 180 degrees out of whack.

The problem with your theory is that life-pods are quite different from missile pods; missile pods are 2-3000 tons of particularly large dimensions and quite stealthy construction so they're hard to pick up even with active sensors, while life pods are far smaller [less than 100 tons?] and very different dimensions and materials, but most importantly all sorts of beacons etc broadcasting "this a life pod, please pick us up", ie the complete opposite of missile pods.

Remember Zavala warned Dubroskaya that his sensors could ten if people were inside her life pods, so don't try to fool him, a very impressive capability.

Secondly, Mike didn't set this up for death by cop.

They were trying to clear the boat bay to get most of the rest of the crew out, but they they needed to dump the missile pods so they could self destruct, and came up with a better use.

The sheer coincidence of the boat bay clearing and the RHN getting into range was totally unexpected, and thus Mike worried about their understandable reaction, so she had already realized how it might look to them, but it was too late.

Like a lot of life.

L

exiledtoIA wrote:Snipped to save bandwidth.

The problem I have always had with this incident is the precedent it sets for future engagements.
How are other Haven commanders supposed to know if Manties are really abandoning ship or setting them up for an ambush?

If I were a Haven officer and I heard about this situation my initial reaction to ANY damaged Mantie ship suddenly launching "lifepods" or debris would be to lay some lovin on them. Just in case.
Little rough on anyone in the pods, but hey, how am I to know what they were REALLY up to?
Henke's actions have to possibility to endanger Manticore Navy personnel if future engagements because of the precedent they set.

exiledtoIA wrote:
Snipped to save bandwidth.

The problem I have always had with this incident is the precedent it sets for future engagements.
How are other Haven commanders supposed to know if Manties are really abandoning ship or setting them up for an ambush?

If I were a Haven officer and I heard about this situation my initial reaction to ANY damaged Mantie ship suddenly launching "lifepods" or debris would be to lay some lovin on them. Just in case.
Little rough on anyone in the pods, but hey, how am I to know what they were REALLY up to?
Henke's actions have to possibility to endanger Manticore Navy personnel if future engagements because of the precedent they set.

Firstly, I appreciate all of your thoughts.
Secondly, I am being quite truthful in that I am really having a problem with this act and it bothers me in ways I can't localize.
Thirdly, I knew that discussing it would help me come to terms with my subconscious issues. This post helps.

I realize, because of this post and Greentea's, a little more specifically what bothers me. Now I don't know how many others of you may do this, but oftentimes while reading other officer's confrontations, I can't help but wondering WWHD (What Would Honor Do?) And for the life of me, I cannot imagine Honor Harrington pulling that particular move, or condoning it. I just can't. Moreover, Honor worked so hard to get the mindset of the Peeps to be civil towards prisoners (captured or floating about in space.) I just don't see Honor herself employing this tactic. And I wouldn't be surprised if she, at a later private time, discussed it with Henke and made her see why it might not have been the right thing to do.

Now, if there was danger of the Peeps overtaking Honor's ship and that ploy was used to buy comrades time to escape ... okay.

And I see your point exiledtoIA. You wouldn't want to create an awful situation by setting a precedent where decency during evacuation may be discarded.

What is that phrase? ...
"Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me."

In that same situation, I think Honor would have given the order to scuttle and shot down any similar plan. IMHO.

cthia wrote:

exiledtoIA wrote:
Snipped to save bandwidth.

The problem I have always had with this incident is the precedent it sets for future engagements.
How are other Haven commanders supposed to know if Manties are really abandoning ship or setting them up for an ambush?

If I were a Haven officer and I heard about this situation my initial reaction to ANY damaged Mantie ship suddenly launching "lifepods" or debris would be to lay some lovin on them. Just in case.
Little rough on anyone in the pods, but hey, how am I to know what they were REALLY up to?
Henke's actions have to possibility to endanger Manticore Navy personnel if future engagements because of the precedent they set.

Firstly, I appreciate all of your thoughts.
Secondly, I am being quite truthful in that I am really having a problem with this act and it bothers me in ways I can't localize.
Thirdly, I knew that discussing it would help me come to terms with my subconscious issues. This post helps.

I realize, because of this post and Greentea's, a little more specifically what bothers me. Now I don't know how many others of you may do this, but oftentimes while reading other officer's confrontations, I can't help but wondering WWHD (What Would Honor Do?) And for the life of me, I cannot imagine Honor Harrington pulling that particular move, or condoning it. I just can't. Moreover, Honor worked so hard to get the mindset of the Peeps to be civil towards prisoners (captured or floating about in space.) I just don't see Honor herself employing this tactic. And I wouldn't be surprised if she, at a later private time, discussed it with Henke and made her see why it might not have been the right thing to do.

Now, if there was danger of the Peeps overtaking Honor's ship and that ploy was used to buy comrades time to escape ... okay.

And I see your point exiledtoIA. You wouldn't want to create an awful situation by setting a precedent where decency during evacuation may be discarded.

What is that phrase? ...
"Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me."

In that same situation, I think Honor would have given the order to scuttle and shot down any similar plan. IMHO.

The problem a lot of people here seem to have is they are looking at the situation from the point of the civilian reader with near perfect information, with the benefit of hindsight --AKA the armchair admiral-- and not as the military person in charge on the spot at the time.

Look at the situation from the characters point of view, as the Captain or Admiral in the RMN, as the situation developed, instead.

Situation (start): Your nation (the Star Kingdom of Manticore) is at war. You are in charge of the ship, with the responsibilities as an officer in the Royal Manticoran Navy. You have just been in battle with the enemy. Your ship has been severely damaged, with many of your crew both wounded and killed. You have little or no chance of fixing it and escaping from the enemy pursuing forces in the time before the enemy can re-engage you. You have the ability to scuttle your ship, but cannot get everyone alive remaining on board off. You can continue to work to get more of your crew off alive, but the possibility you can get more off is low. You still have the capability to strike at the enemy.

Your options:

1) Surrender your ship and crew alive to the pursuing enemy forces with all its advanced technology to the enemy. (A good case could be made that this would be treason to the Star Kingdom in wartime.)

2) Scuttle your ship yourself at the last possible moment (so you can continue to work to get more off alive) without striking at your enemies, denying the enemy the ship's advanced technology, killing yourself and many (but not all) of your remaining shipmates in the process, but not making the enemy pay for their deaths.

3) Strike at the enemy at the last possible moment (so you can continue to work to get more off alive), then scuttle the ship, accepting the fact that you and many (but not all) of your shipmates will probably die in the process, but making the enemy pay for their victory.

What option would you choose, at this point in the situation? Keep in mind the chances of the circumstances of situation you face (not being able to get everyone off the ship) changing are very low to non-existent. And you are in charge, serving in the RMN, and at war with the enemy.

Instead of asking 'What would Honor do?', instead remember 'What Thomas Theisman said to Honor regarding her responsibility to herself, her navy, and her nation' (after the battle with Filareta).

Note that the enemy was responsible for their own actions in Theisman's view.

Hi Vince,

All of your points are quite true.

But the advantage of extending the Apollo SDP's firing endurance by carrying more pods internally where they're relatively well protected is what is apparently driving the decision of keeping the Agamemnon's with the SDP fleets, given HoS claims 85 have been built, so with 360 pods each, they can probably keep up with the new SDP's acceleration better than the older ones of which the RMN and GSN have around 200 that can carry less than 50% more pods.

I suspect they will be used where Apollo's aren't thought necessary, like the TQ squadrons we know of.

L

Vince wrote:

lyonheart wrote:
***SNIP***

While the Agamemnon BCP's have been kept with the main fleets because they can carry Apollo's etc, the Nike is supposed to engage and destroy other BC's with at least some weapons' superiority, so having warheads that had such difficulty penetrating the typical BC's armor didn't and doesn't make sense, aside from the storyline drama; but I've always believed that question was probably made back when SoS first came out before I joined the bar, and whatever RFC's explanation was it didn't make it to the pearls, so I've held off pointing it out before.

Agamemnon BCP's can carry MDMs, but don't normally carry Apollo control missiles in its pods. The Agamemnon BCP is equipped with Keyhole I, not Keyhole II (Apollo FTL).

Hi Cthua,

I have to disagree here.

Honor has been there; the death ride, when you know you're going to die and your main concern is taking as many of the enemy with you as possible, so I wouldn't be surprised if Honor didn't congratulate her on her clever tactic, because that's exactly what she would have done if she'd been in command.

Furthermore I disagree with the statement "Honor worked so hard to get the peeps to improve their treatment of POW's"; she treated them with respect and consideration yes, but it wasn't to change their treatment of Manty POW's [do you really think InSec or StateSec was going to change its policies because a handful of ex-POW's said she treated them so well? please -first- ]; it was simply Honor being Honor, she could do no less and still be Honor.

Kinda like G. Washington.

Again life pods and missile pods are so completely different that you can't confuse the two unless you're probably Battle Fleet.

L

cthia wrote:

exiledtoIA wrote:
Snipped to save bandwidth.

The problem I have always had with this incident is the precedent it sets for future engagements.
How are other Haven commanders supposed to know if Manties are really abandoning ship or setting them up for an ambush?

If I were a Haven officer and I heard about this situation my initial reaction to ANY damaged Mantie ship suddenly launching "lifepods" or debris would be to lay some lovin on them. Just in case.
Little rough on anyone in the pods, but hey, how am I to know what they were REALLY up to?
Henke's actions have to possibility to endanger Manticore Navy personnel if future engagements because of the precedent they set.

Firstly, I appreciate all of your thoughts.
Secondly, I am being quite truthful in that I am really having a problem with this act and it bothers me in ways I can't localize.
Thirdly, I knew that discussing it would help me come to terms with my subconscious issues. This post helps.

I realize, because of this post and Greentea's, a little more specifically what bothers me. Now I don't know how many others of you may do this, but oftentimes while reading other officer's confrontations, I can't help but wondering WWHD (What Would Honor Do?) And for the life of me, I cannot imagine Honor Harrington pulling that particular move, or condoning it. I just can't. Moreover, Honor worked so hard to get the mindset of the Peeps to be civil towards prisoners (captured or floating about in space.) I just don't see Honor herself employing this tactic. And I wouldn't be surprised if she, at a later private time, discussed it with Henke and made her see why it might not have been the right thing to do.

Now, if there was danger of the Peeps overtaking Honor's ship and that ploy was used to buy comrades time to escape ... okay.

And I see your point exiledtoIA. You wouldn't want to create an awful situation by setting a precedent where decency during evacuation may be discarded.

What is that phrase? ...
"Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me."

In that same situation, I think Honor would have given the order to scuttle and shot down any similar plan. IMHO.

lyonheart wrote:
Hi Cthia,

I have to disagree here.

Honor has been there; the death ride, when you know you're going to die and your main concern is taking as many of the enemy with you as possible, so I wouldn't be surprised if Honor didn't congratulate her on her clever tactic, because that's exactly what she would have done if she'd been in command.

Furthermore I disagree with the statement "Honor worked so hard to get the peeps to improve their treatment of POW's"; she treated them with respect and consideration yes, but it wasn't to change their treatment of Manty POW's [do you really think InSec or StateSec was going to change its policies because a handful of ex-POW's said she treated them so well? please -first- ]; it was simply Honor being Honor, she could do no less and still be Honor.

Kinda like G. Washington.

Again life pods and missile pods are so completely different that you can't confuse the two unless you're probably Battle Fleet.

L

exiledtoIA wrote:
Snipped to save bandwidth.

The problem I have always had with this incident is the precedent it sets for future engagements.
How are other Haven commanders supposed to know if Manties are really abandoning ship or setting them up for an ambush?

If I were a Haven officer and I heard about this situation my initial reaction to ANY damaged Mantie ship suddenly launching "lifepods" or debris would be to lay some lovin on them. Just in case.
Little rough on anyone in the pods, but hey, how am I to know what they were REALLY up to?
Henke's actions have to possibility to endanger Manticore Navy personnel if future engagements because of the precedent they set.

Cthia wrote:
Firstly, I appreciate all of your thoughts.
Secondly, I am being quite truthful in that I am really having a problem with this act and it bothers me in ways I can't localize.
Thirdly, I knew that discussing it would help me come to terms with my subconscious issues. This post helps.

I realize, because of this post and Greentea's, a little more specifically what bothers me. Now I don't know how many others of you may do this, but oftentimes while reading other officer's confrontations, I can't help but wondering WWHD (What Would Honor Do?) And for the life of me, I cannot imagine Honor Harrington pulling that particular move, or condoning it. I just can't. Moreover, Honor worked so hard to get the mindset of the Peeps to be civil towards prisoners (captured or floating about in space.) I just don't see Honor herself employing this tactic. And I wouldn't be surprised if she, at a later private time, discussed it with Henke and made her see why it might not have been the right thing to do.

Now, if there was danger of the Peeps overtaking Honor's ship and that ploy was used to buy comrades time to escape ... okay.

And I see your point exiledtoIA. You wouldn't want to create an awful situation by setting a precedent where decency during evacuation may be discarded.

What is that phrase? ...
"Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me."

In that same situation, I think Honor would have given the order to scuttle and shot down any similar plan. IMHO.

****** *


Lyonheart,
I appreciate the post and I surely must disagree "two."

Honor has been there; the death ride, when you know you're going to die and your main concern is taking as many of the enemy with you as possible, so I wouldn't be surprised if Honor didn't congratulate her on her clever tactic, because that's exactly what she would have done if she'd been in command.

Respectfully, I'm afraid I view the aforementioned situations as apples to oranges. Honor's situations — the death rides — were hopeless but not helpless. She still had a chance, to go down fighting in the form of a golden BB. Which is what Tester always delivered unto her, a golden bb. And the situation warranted it, inasmuch as Honor was not in the middle of a desperate evacuation. No Lyonheart, I must passionately disagree that Honor would have employed such a dishonorable act. IMHO of course. And IMH-O' ... hearts.

As far as ...

Furthermore I disagree with the statement "Honor worked so hard to get the peeps to improve their treatment of POW's"; she treated them with respect and consideration yes, but it wasn't to change their treatment of Manty POW's [do you really think InSec or StateSec was going to change its policies because a handful of ex-POW's said she treated them so well? please -first- ]; it was simply Honor being Honor, she could do no less and still be Honor.

It is definitely inaccurate.

I recall your attention to exhibit-A, when Eighth Fleet was operating in the Peeps rear areas. Honor consistently gave extra time to evacuate. And she insisted on proper treatment of POW's, but not before insisting that every life-pod be collected. There was definite textev, featuring a conversation in Haven's - War room (IIRC) of it's top brass (forget who) that Harrington may be sending the message that she would be open to proper treatment of prisoners as well as a certain morality if Haven would reciprocate. It was an almost verbatim "I think Harrington may also be sending the message that she'd be willing to exercise restraint if we were." I distinctly remember that Peep conversation. And IIRC, it was echoed in Honor's thoughts. If you do not remember that passage, I shall divert energies and task myself to bring it to bear, or perhaps any of our more studious, surprisingly efficient tac witches. Honor worked very hard to restore a sense of morality!

However, I can't remember if it was during the time of StateSec or no.

Again life pods and missile pods are so completely different that you can't confuse the two unless you're probably Battle Fleet.

I think it has been misunderstood exiledtoIA's point about the life pods. I don't think he meant it as a possibility of confusing the two, rather seizing the fact that a combatant does not desecrate the inherent sanctity of "waving the white flag of surrender" by booby trap. Desperately abandoning ship is akin to waving the white flag. IMHO, and I think exiledtoIA's point. I concur.

But it's not. The universal signal for starship surrender in the Honorverse is deliberately striking the wedge. That was not done.

I think it's instructive that Theisman basically takes Henke's side on this.

cthia wrote:I think it has been misunderstood exiledtoIA's point about the life pods. I don't think he meant it as a possibility of confusing the two, rather seizing the fact that a combatant does not desecrate the inherent sanctity of "waving the white flag of surrender" by booby trap. Desperately abandoning ship is akin to waving the white flag. IMHO, and I think exiledtoIA's point. I concur.