McQueen vs Pritchart

Commodore Oakius wrote:While Mcqueen had the military loyalty, the civilian side of the government would not have been so willing. I think there would have been a civil war had she succeeded in her coup, and that combined with Buttercup, would have rolled the peeps into nothingness.

n7axw wrote:...
His decision to start putting a file together on her which her sourses reported as meaning that he was about to move against her led to her premature coup attempt and her undoing.

I think on the Havenite side, I give the gold to Theisman, given both his war record, his successful coup, and his role in the interim between the wars in rebuilding the RHN and restoring the Old Republic as well as being the author of both Thunderbolt and Beatrice.

Her coup was only stopped because of the nuke, even with the premature launch of it. If it wasn't for that she may have pulled it off.
I don't know if she would have restored the old republic though, so in that case/sense Theisman takes the gold, but just.

You're forgetting, Theisman's plan WAS McQueen's plan. When he took over he found her action plans and contacts in the CNO files. She was forced into action immediately and didn't maneuver any of her chesspieces into place for the plan to work - she knew that and was shooting from the hip with a fraction of the resources which were loyal to her which were in place to act then - and she almost succeeded.

Theisman found the plans and started executing them immediately - putting McQueen's untouched conspirators in places of command quietly under the guise of removing her rot in Homefleet and the system defenses.

I'm not saying Theisman didn't add flourishes of his own - he did have to rework the plan to replace the units destroyed under McQueen and in the destroyed Octogon. But his was more the will to see it done once and for all than the mind that conceived it.

Theemile wrote:You're forgetting, Theisman's plan WAS McQueen's plan. When he took over he found her action plans and contacts in the CNO files. She was forced into action immediately and didn't maneuver any of her chesspieces into place for the plan to work - she knew that and was shooting from the hip with a fraction of the resources which were loyal to her which were in place to act then - and she almost succeeded.

Theisman found the plans and started executing them immediately - putting McQueen's untouched conspirators in places of command quietly under the guise of removing her rot in Homefleet and the system defenses.

I'm not saying Theisman didn't add flourishes of his own - he did have to rework the plan to replace the units destroyed under McQueen and in the destroyed Octogon. But his was more the will to see it done once and for all than the mind that conceived it.

A good point mI didn't think of, he was able to finish the plans McQueen thought she didnt have time for.

Yes, Theisman used McQueen's plan for the coup. But then he went on from there and engineered victory in a multisided civil war, restored the Old Republic's constitution, rebuilt the navy and gave Manticore a pretty good run for its money before Lovat.

Would McQueen have had the vision to have followed Theisman's path had she succeeded? I doubt it. I think she was a warlord in the making...

Don

n7axw wrote:Yes, Theisman used McQueen's plan for the coup. But then he went on from there and engineered victory in a multisided civil war, restored the Old Republic's constitution, rebuilt the navy and gave Manticore a pretty good run for its money before Lovat.

Would McQueen have had the vision to have followed Theisman's path had she succeeded? I doubt it. I think she was a warlord in the making...

Don

Given that Esther was pretty transparently based on Napoleon, I'd say you're right.

roseandheather wrote:

n7axw wrote:Yes, Theisman used McQueen's plan for the coup. But then he went on from there and engineered victory in a multisided civil war, restored the Old Republic's constitution, rebuilt the navy and gave Manticore a pretty good run for its money before Lovat.

Would McQueen have had the vision to have followed Theisman's path had she succeeded? I doubt it. I think she was a warlord in the making...

Don

Given that Esther was pretty transparently based on Napoleon, I'd say you're right.

Textev is full of instances where it says she was ambitious.

Commodore Oakius wrote:Textev is full of instances where it says she was ambitious.

While this is true, she was probably well aware she could not hold on to power long without cementing the support of the opposition to the Pierre/St. Just regime, which would have required at least going through the motions of constitutional government.

drothgery wrote:While this is true, she was probably well aware she could not hold on to power long without cementing the support of the opposition to the Pierre/St. Just regime, which would have required at least going through the motions of constitutional government.

There was as little "opposition" to St Just at the end as there was to Hitler in Feb 1945. Totalitarian governments in a crisis are terrifying places. Nobody said anything disloyal even to their closest friends or family. Every day there are object lessons in the street as to why keeping your mouth shut and your head down is a great idea.

kzt wrote:

drothgery wrote:While this is true, she was probably well aware she could not hold on to power long without cementing the support of the opposition to the Pierre/St. Just regime, which would have required at least going through the motions of constitutional government.

There was as little "opposition" to St Just at the end as there was to Hitler in Feb 1945. Totalitarian governments in a crisis are terrifying places. Nobody said anything disloyal even to their closest friends or family. Every day there are object lessons in the street as to why keeping your mouth shut and your head down is a great idea.

Except that we know Kevin Usher was part of an active and organized opposition that he recruited Victor Cachat into.

drothgery wrote:Except that we know Kevin Usher was part of an active and organized opposition that he recruited Victor Cachat into.

That was a retcon by a dude who is a giant fan of one of the big supporters of mass executions of "class traitors" and other such totalitarian Marxist nonsense.

An underground, yes, including Pritchart; but the Pritchart-Usher underground was likely NOT part of the McQueen faction.
I agree with those above that Esther McQueen was a warlord in progress; possibly a Breshnev following (with an interim) Stalin. I doubt she would have done a Theisman and resurrected the old constitution and put someone ELSE as president.

-- just my 2cents (or centi-credits)
-- Stewart

.[/quote]Except that we know Kevin Usher was part of an active and organized opposition that he recruited Victor Cachat into.[/quote]