Battle of Manticore - am I the only one?

Actually Yanosh, all 3 asassinations ( or attempts ) make sense.
1) Honor is the most popular commander in the Alliance, and quite possibly the most dangerous.
Solution: Get rid of her any way you can.

2) The Mantie Ambassador is very popular with the Sollies, he is making Manticore look like the good guys to too many people in the Solar Union.
Solution: Get rid of him. ( although you probably shouldn't use one of your public employees to do it at the opera. )

3) For some reason known only to the Peeps, they CANNOT go to the peace conference. Not Don't want to, but CAN'T.
However it was their idea so backing out will be BAD JUJU.
Solution:An attack one the leadership of the planet where the conference is to be held. Thereby showing the universe that it isn't safe for your leader to go there.

Problems solved.

exiledtoIA wrote:Actually Yanosh, all 3 asassinations ( or attempts ) make sense.
1) Honor is the most popular commander in the Alliance, and quite possibly the most dangerous.
Solution: Get rid of her any way you can.

2) The Mantie Ambassador is very popular with the Sollies, he is making Manticore look like the good guys to too many people in the Solar Union.
Solution: Get rid of him. ( although you probably shouldn't use one of your public employees to do it at the opera. )

3) For some reason known only to the Peeps, they CANNOT go to the peace conference. Not Don't want to, but CAN'T.
However it was their idea so backing out will be BAD JUJU.
Solution:An attack one the leadership of the planet where the conference is to be held. Thereby showing the universe that it isn't safe for your leader to go there.

Problems solved.

The first two I can buy but the third is IMO just a desperate attempt to justify what Elizabeth did sine there is no reasonable reason for Haven to be unable to attend the peace conference.

And in any case Mesa/manpower had grudges against all three targets but they never appeared on Elizabeth's suspect list at all while Haven had no reason at all to want Torch's leadership dead. Elizabeth let her emotions control her to the point that she wasn't being rational.

And Haven's new government did nothing ethically or legally wrong by attacking a nation they were already at war with after years of attempts to establish a treaty ending the war failed, especially since a large part of the reason the negotiations failed was that the High Ridge government wanted to keep the war going for their own purposes.

To quote the song - " ... Nobody's right, if everybody's wrong ... ".

I'm glad that Manticore won that particular battle, though it obviously would have been far far better if this had never happened at all - ie. 'certain people' had pulled their heads out of their backsides (yes, I'm talking to you, Elizabeth Winton), and both sides had somehow figured it all out sooner.

IF Haven had won, or at least achieved more of a draw, I'd worry a lot about would happen next. Yes, Pritchart & Co know the truth and would want to offer fairly lenient peace terms. However, I strongly suspect that a big chunk of the Havenite Legislature would be all fired up and ready to go full 'Treaty Of Versailles' on whatever was left of Manticore ...

... With the Sollies getting closer and closer all this time - and MALign having, more or less, free reign.

JohnS wrote:Not wanting to appear troll-like, I've hesitated on saying this. But after an impassioned speech by roseandheather in the Missing Scenes thread, I can't resist...

When the Battle of Manticore concluded, I was angry because I wanted Haven to win. With their survival at stake, they threw the dice, did everything right, and still lost. As far as I was concerned, they were the underdogs and they deserved to win.

If you felt that way, David succeeded in his evil plan to create a sympathetic enemy. Congratulations, David!

Actually Rogue, you are wrong from the Manties POV.
They KNOW that the Peeps have been lying about the diplomatic correspondence. Not think, but KNOW. Now for some undoubtly nefarious reason the Peeps have suddenly decided that they want peace, just AFTER they got handed their lower elevations. The Peeps KNOW that if Manticore gets their new equipment in general use the party is over.
So what do you do?
Why hey - Of course - ask for a cease fire while you negotiate for peace.
Hey it worked last time. Remember a gentleman named Oscar? Or Rob?
Stall for time while you try to come up with something that will give you a chance.

Then either because someone comes up with the idea or suddenly realizes " OH CRAP, we're going to be putting our leadership in the same room with furry lie detectors who can tell the universe that we are lying our pants off" now you have to come up with some way out of YOUR peace conference that doesn't tell the universe that Manticore was right all along and Haven can't be trusted.

How do you do that? HMMMMMMM?

Roguevictory wrote:

exiledtoIA wrote:Actually Yanosh, all 3 asassinations ( or attempts ) make sense.
1) Honor is the most popular commander in the Alliance, and quite possibly the most dangerous.
Solution: Get rid of her any way you can.

2) The Mantie Ambassador is very popular with the Sollies, he is making Manticore look like the good guys to too many people in the Solar Union.
Solution: Get rid of him. ( although you probably shouldn't use one of your public employees to do it at the opera. )

3) For some reason known only to the Peeps, they CANNOT go to the peace conference. Not Don't want to, but CAN'T.
However it was their idea so backing out will be BAD JUJU.
Solution:An attack one the leadership of the planet where the conference is to be held. Thereby showing the universe that it isn't safe for your leader to go there.

Problems solved.

The first two I can buy but the third is IMO just a desperate attempt to justify what Elizabeth did sine there is no reasonable reason for Haven to be unable to attend the peace conference.

And in any case Mesa/manpower had grudges against all three targets but they never appeared on Elizabeth's suspect list at all while Haven had no reason at all to want Torch's leadership dead. Elizabeth let her emotions control her to the point that she wasn't being rational.

And Haven's new government did nothing ethically or legally wrong by attacking a nation they were already at war with after years of attempts to establish a treaty ending the war failed, especially since a large part of the reason the negotiations failed was that the High Ridge government wanted to keep the war going for their own purposes.

SWM wrote:

JohnS wrote:Not wanting to appear troll-like, I've hesitated on saying this. But after an impassioned speech by roseandheather in the Missing Scenes thread, I can't resist...

When the Battle of Manticore concluded, I was angry because I wanted Haven to win. With their survival at stake, they threw the dice, did everything right, and still lost. As far as I was concerned, they were the underdogs and they deserved to win.

If you felt that way, David succeeded in his evil plan to create a sympathetic enemy. Congratulations, David!

... or, as I was tryin' ta told y'all, it is a concentrated virtual strain of the Stockholm Syndrome.

exiledtoIA wrote:Actually Rogue, you are wrong from the Manties POV.
They KNOW that the Peeps have been lying about the diplomatic correspondence. Not think, but KNOW. Now for some undoubtly nefarious reason the Peeps have suddenly decided that they want peace, just AFTER they got handed their lower elevations. The Peeps KNOW that if Manticore gets their new equipment in general use the party is over.
So what do you do?
Why hey - Of course - ask for a cease fire while you negotiate for peace.
Hey it worked last time. Remember a gentleman named Oscar? Or Rob?
Stall for time while you try to come up with something that will give you a chance.

Then either because someone comes up with the idea or suddenly realizes " OH CRAP, we're going to be putting our leadership in the same room with furry lie detectors who can tell the universe that we are lying our pants off" now you have to come up with some way out of YOUR peace conference that doesn't tell the universe that Manticore was right all along and Haven can't be trusted.

How do you do that? HMMMMMMM?

If I remember right, the main reason Haven didn't tell Manticore about the diplomatic manipulation was because there was little to no proof and there was no way Manticore would have believed them right after the war had been resumed, and the Secretary of State conveniently dead. Treecats verifying the Havenites word or not, there was no proof that would be admissible in court, and that was the problem (and no, I doubt a treecats word is considered legal proof in a court of law. All a treecat can tell is someones intent and belief that what they are saying is real (and people can be deceived into believing incorrect things are real), not what is actually real). Until Haven had that proof, they were sol in actually proving it.

Treason!

Traitorous scum.

JohnS wrote:Not wanting to appear troll-like, I've hesitated on saying this. But after an impassioned speech by roseandheather in the Missing Scenes thread, I can't resist...

When the Battle of Manticore concluded, I was angry because I wanted Haven to win. With their survival at stake, they threw the dice, did everything right, and still lost. As far as I was concerned, they were the underdogs and they deserved to win.

After the Legislaturalists and the Committee, they pulled themselves out of a horrible hole by their own efforts. I didn't want to see Manticore conquer them. No matter how benign that rule would be, not matter how well-formed a new government Manticore created for Haven, it could never grant them the pride they can feel that they fixed their own problem.

Of course, thanks to Honor's desire to "give peace a chance" and the exposure of the Alignment's machinations, Manticore did not conquer Haven. But even with that, I still wish they'd won.

The Manties could have wiped out the Haven home fleet in Mission of Honor, it was the other option Honor had availible to her. she said she had the weapons to do it. she would either get a peace treaty or a surrender.

I would have loved if the Havenites won the battle of maticore, expect that I prefer the Manties. I loved Haven persons from the first mention of Captain Yu and Commander Theisman in Honor of the Queen, and I think they were justified in their attack on Manticore, given that they were at active war and needed to finish it as quickly as possible. It's like Mike Tysons Punchout, and you are fighting Sodapopinski. You use your star punch because its you best chance to knock him out for the count. Instead, he survives, and pounds you with 3 punches and you fall for the count, (you are pathatic Little Mac.) But instead of pounding the Haven home system Elizabeth extended a velvet glove of friendship, which covered the Iron gauntlet of victory.

Now that I've vented, I will offer my explanation.

Manticore had over centuries observed Haven's decline from a true Republic into an end stage welfare state that had robbed it's citizenry of the ambition to be productive citizens. As a result, Haven was compelled to conquer it's neighbors to provide the loot that was needed to support its voracious welfare state. Even Rob Pierre understood that the welfare state needed to be dismantled, but he also understood that conquest would have to continue to provide more loot to support Haven until he could reform the system and reeducate the Dolists to become productive citizens.

By the time of WoH, Rob Pierre's economic reforms had succeeded in restoring Haven's ability to support itself. While a few economists at ONI might have understood that this profound this transformation had occurred, Queen Elizebeth could be easily forgiven for not accepting it at a visceral level much less be unwilling to bet the security of her kingdom on the hope that Haven could be trusted to not revert to conquest.

Have I mentioned that Rob Pierre is my Havenite hero? He is the anti-Obama who transformed Haven from the type of welfare state that so many on this board long for into a more capitalist system that values education, productivity and self reliance.