Verge Liberation Movements

Direwolf18 wrote:Montana liberation front and the Freedom Alliance of Kornati? Granted they were targeted against Manticore, but the same, lets make Manticore look like asses on an intergalactic stage, run by the same mesan agent.

I don't think that those two fit the profile of "blame Manticore for not supporting them.

Still, it does raise the question of whether Manticore should render assistance to every resistance movement Firebrand & Co have promised support to. How many are going to be nutcases like Agnes Nordbrandt?

Phalanx wrote:Seriously, if Manticore keeps putting our fire's like this, they will be portrayed as "Imperialist"(They do call themselves an Empire, and everyone knows Empires are bad.) by the Solarian media. Furthermore this plays right into the MALignment's hands by exhausting Manticore's assets.

It's like the MA has a plan or something....

What do we know about the astrographical location of the different liberation movements which were mentioned in SoF? For example, if Seraphim is in or near the Sector controlled by Meyers, that liberation movement is in for an unexpected present ... After all, if I remember correctly, Gold Peak ordered a clean sweap on all planets which were in Verocchios Bailiwick.

And any Independence/Liberation Movement who manages to get an ambassador on its way to Spindle will be considered anyway to be the real deal, as long as they can convince the treecats.

(Yeah, I know there are only 2 Treecats in 10th fleet, but Gold Peak should be able to manage, that
1 - only 1 of the 2 Treecats available is with her in Meyers/Mesa and
2 - she requires from home at least 1 additional human-treecat-pairing, so that in both systems an ambassador will most probably hit (Montana and Spindle), a furry lie detector will be available.
That additional pair doesn't even have to be RMN. That would be helpful, true, especially regarding the chain-of-command, but, for example, someone from the Sphinxian Forrest Service, who happens to be a member of an official delegation on a tour to evaluate the standards of the new planets regarding environmental policy or so would do, too ...)

Direwolf18 wrote:Montana liberation front and the Freedom Alliance of Kornati? Granted they were targeted against Manticore, but the same, lets make Manticore look like asses on an intergalactic stage, run by the same mesan agent.

It's a while since I read SoS, but wasn't Firebrand working for OFS at that point, which was what caused Stephen Westman to abandon his armed resistance to Montana joining the Star Empire?

Phalanx wrote:

SWM wrote:Ah, true, if you are counting each individual movement on a planet. The People's Liberation Front, the People's Front for Liberation, the Liberation Front of the People, Front for the People's Liberation, etc.

Not to mention the Popular Liberation Front, Populist Front for Liberation and Popular Front for Liberation.

Splitters! Rotten splitters, the whole lot of them!

Seriously, the MAlign doesn't actually have to invest that much resources, relatively, in supporting those movements. Virtually all the ones we've seen up to date have been home-grown - with a plan extending for centuries, the MAlign surely have been monitoring the development of those movements. All they really need to find is an individual known to be part of a, if not the, movement.

Then they just need to send a few "Manticoran" agents in to pump them up, maybe arrange covert weapon shipments, promise reinforcements for when the moment comes and then disappear, leaving a mess.

Dafmeister wrote:

Direwolf18 wrote:Montana liberation front and the Freedom Alliance of Kornati? Granted they were targeted against Manticore, but the same, lets make Manticore look like asses on an intergalactic stage, run by the same mesan agent.

It's a while since I read SoS, but wasn't Firebrand working for OFS at that point, which was what caused Stephen Westman to abandon his armed resistance to Montana joining the Star Empire?

Firebrand was with the Gendarmerie to start with, but shortly after his introduction, he went to work for Anisimovna and the Mesans' plan. Obviously, he wasn't brought further into the onion until later, as Anisimovna herself didn't even know of anything called an Alignment.

As to Firebrand's association with the OFS prior to his work for Mesa, I recall his mental note about why he'd been working with so many 'liberation' fronts over the years. Something about being able to identify the malcontents' leadership when OFS made their move.

The Alignment is following this pattern - using the various fronts to foment unrest so they can step in and solve the problem. It helps even more when you know exactly what weapons are on planet and who to grab in the first go-round to track their locations.

It's almost as good for your reputation as what Terekhov did on Kornati. And much less reliant on a lucky bit of analysis by the youngsters. The only change to the plan was putting 'Manticore' on the hook as the people responsible for the support. They probably intended to have 'Beowulf' initially, but that particular system is in enough trouble with the League as it is in terms of popularity.

Remember, the original plan was to foment a massive, nigh-apocalyptic implosion of the League and then use a core of 'enlightened' worlds to form a new, more streamlined (and centrally controlled) League out of the ashes. If you're a history buff, consider the parallels to post WWI Germany and the rise of the National Socialist Party there.

Detweiller may have been a genius in biology, but I think he skipped too many history classes. Either that, or he's one of those people who believe 'The reason those other people failed to create the ideal <whatever> state is because they just weren't as smart as I am...'

Anyhow, just my two centicreds.
Dave

SWM wrote:

Zakharra wrote:I think any list given in the books will be woefully inadequate. There's likely going to be hundreds if not thousands of resistance/freedom movements in the Verge and Protectorates. I got the impression that was kind of the plan all along from the MAlign to keep the former SL worlds (more or less outside of the Core that is) in disarray so the RF would be able to get systems to voluntarily join the RF as an organization/star nation that is bringing peace and order to a now very chaotic universe. The resistance/freedom movements will be causing the chaos that is needed.

It can't really be thousands, because the usual estimate of the number of systems under OFS control is only a couple thousand. It could be hundreds, but I would guess that the Alignment has their finger in only dozens, at most.

I said hundreds to thousands for a reason. The MAlign wants chaos in SL space and around it, enough to make them look like the good guys as the RF when they come offering up some peace and prosperity. Funding, or at least stirring the pot to get as many Verge/Protectorate worlds fighting themselves, or each other as possible serves the MAlign/RF's needs. It will have a side benefit, or might.. of keeping Manticore busy too. Trying to put out all of these fires.

Whatever you might think of the MAlign, it clearly thinks BIG, and it was after the -entire- Solarian League. So it kind of makes sense it would have plans to keep the worlds of the entire SL off balance. The question is now, how well will they work? I'm thinking, well enough. Humans being humans, we will find ways to kill each other over seemingly minor things. And when there is a grudge like many worlds would have with OFS and the trans-stellars? Blood is going to flow.

Lazalarlives wrote:As to Firebrand's association with the OFS prior to his work for Mesa, I recall his mental note about why he'd been working with so many 'liberation' fronts over the years. Something about being able to identify the malcontents' leadership when OFS made their move.

The Alignment is following this pattern - using the various fronts to foment unrest so they can step in and solve the problem. It helps even more when you know exactly what weapons are on planet and who to grab in the first go-round to track their locations.

I don't think the MAlign has anything like OFS' motives in mind with the current campaign to foment rebellions to blame on Manticore. They have no intention of stepping in to solve any problems, they just want OFS and Frontier Fleet tied up and blaming Manticore for the rebellions.

Their aim with regard to Manticore is not to spread the RMN thin trying to redeem "manticore's word" but to undermine their credibility with Successor States. Manticore isn't supposed to find out about any of the rebellions until well after they are crushed and "evidence" of Manticore's promised support is uncovered.

Lazalarlives wrote:Detweiller may have been a genius in biology, but I think he skipped too many history classes. Either that, or he's one of those people who believe 'The reason those other people failed to create the ideal <whatever> state is because they just weren't as smart as I am...'

I assume you mean Leonard Detweiler here?

The same could be said of his clones and most of the Mesan alpha lines; the core of the onion, so to speak, but Leonard wasn't quite as megalomaniacal as you suggest. His original plan was probably not as heartless and ambitious as Albrecht & Sons and the long-range planning committee have turned it into.

Still, the general concept of "human perfection through genetic engineering" is one of those "only I have the vision" kinds of conceits that inevitability leads people to try forcing their vision on everyone else.

I would expect that Mesa is supporting multiple liberation movements on many worlds to ensure that if and when the SLN implodes, there will be civil wars on the worlds no longer dominated by OFS.

namelessfly wrote:I would expect that Mesa is supporting multiple liberation movements on many worlds to ensure that if and when the SLN implodes, there will be civil wars on the worlds no longer dominated by OFS.

Quite likely, and some of those worlds may well be in the Innermost parts of the SL.

So what I think you're saying, nameless, is that the MAlignment is formenting trouble everywhere, but using a subset of that group to cause Manticore grief (as I noted in the other thread, promising Mantie support to a resistance movement 700LY from Manticore who see's maybe one Manty freighter a year is not likely to be an easy sell....IMHO. But a movement 40-80LY from Talbott--yeah, those systems will be the ones getting the works.

In fact (and alluding to yet another thread), it might be wise for Khumalo and Dame Estelle to use any additional ships to do some 'scouting' in the region...just in case....

IMHO as always. YMMV.