antimissile antiLAC

Lord Skimper wrote:As RFC just pointed out the flatter the wedge, parallel to the missile ship etc... the faster it accelerates, so the more open it is the slower it goes. Fully open or near to that stopped. Now a missile like wedge which is operating at 1% of top speed would be very open. Hence firing out the aft with its aft mounted PD, (the PD mounted aft would be more or less the only thing on the mine so it would be aft aiming. It would turn and run with the ship but mainly be aft mounted and firing. Could even stop and coast when firing, as there are lots of the mines and it can accelerate so fast compared to the ship it 'literally' can stop and go on a dime.

Using a Weak missile wedge close to a ship and close ship can peer through the mine wedge where as a distant ship either won't see it at all and likely not see whatever is behind it. The missiles themselves won't see through the mine wedges as their sensors are unable to see through even weak wedges.

Thus it acts as a multiple PD cover, acts as a minor shield (weak wedge) and can hide or mask or jam seeing a ship behind it versus distant ship and close missiles.

No, it can't. One, you're no longer talking about a missile, you're talking about something the size of a ghost rider drone, of which you can carry only a rather limited amount even on a Superdreadnought.
Two, in order to get any benefit at all from wedge interceptions, you have to maneuver those drones very close together, increasing the potential for fratricide among them.
Three, as a consequence of one and two, the area you can blanket with drones is strictly limited.
Four, this will do jack shit against an opponent who has heard of the term "Time on target bombardment from different positions", AKA what Moriarty is doing. It's also not going to help if the enemy deploys an ambush force on a divergent heading from you.

What you end up with is a system that is fairly easy to outmaneuver, extremely limited in terms of its capabilities, and which eats up space that could be used for proven systems while only providing a marginal (if that!) improvement over the current state of the art.

Now, some of those same criticisms also apply to the LAC screen. It too can only cover a limited area, but given that LACs are much more capable platforms, with missile intercepts being possible at a range of several hundred thousand kilometers (as opposed to the several tens of thousands kilometers these drone-mounted laser clusters could fire at), the area they can cover is vastly larger than what this drone screen can do, while at the same time not requiring the sacrifice of any combat ability on the part of the protected ships.

The E wrote:
No, it can't. One, you're no longer talking about a missile, you're talking about something the size of a ghost rider drone, of which you can carry only a rather limited amount even on a Superdreadnought.
Two, in order to get any benefit at all from wedge interceptions, you have to maneuver those drones very close together, increasing the potential for fratricide among them.
Three, as a consequence of one and two, the area you can blanket with drones is strictly limited.
Four, this will do jack shit against an opponent who has heard of the term "Time on target bombardment from different positions", AKA what Moriarty is doing. It's also not going to help if the enemy deploys an ambush force on a divergent heading from you.

What you end up with is a system that is fairly easy to outmaneuver, extremely limited in terms of its capabilities, and which eats up space that could be used for proven systems while only providing a marginal (if that!) improvement over the current state of the art.

Now, some of those same criticisms also apply to the LAC screen. It too can only cover a limited area, but given that LACs are much more capable platforms, with missile intercepts being possible at a range of several hundred thousand kilometers (as opposed to the several tens of thousands kilometers these drone-mounted laser clusters could fire at), the area they can cover is vastly larger than what this drone screen can do, while at the same time not requiring the sacrifice of any combat ability on the part of the protected ships.

I'd quibble that your final sentence is technically true only if the CLAC or LAC base isn't one of the ships that needs protecting (because it's way off out of the way). Actually having LACs on had requires some ship or station to compromise a lot of hypothetical combat ability (compared to a podlayer of the same size) in order to carry and service LACs.

Or if you view it from the task group level you brought a CLAC or two to beef up your defenses. But if you'd swapped them one for one for SD(P)s you'd have more (offensive) combat ability.


Now none of that changes that Skimper's idea has massive other problems. But if someone designed a drone defense that was more effective than a LAC defense it'd make just as much sense to provide dedicated drone carriers as it does to provided dedicated LAC carriers. I don't think the need for them can really count as a serious strike against the idea when CLACs are already used. (Now I don't actually expect to see that, because I don't expect RFC to develop unmanned drones to surplant LACs in screening role)

Lord Skimper wrote:Having PD mines not being able to keep up isn't a problem if they can defeat missiles. Having maneuverability but getting killed because someone is shooting 1000's of missiles at you doesn't work. So you change your tactics.

It doesn't matter whether or not the mines can defeat missiles if they cannot defeat missiles in the area where the ship[s] are.

Remember that the range of the mines is tens of thousands of kilometres, hundreds at max. This means they are very short range in Honorverse terms. If you 'drop mines' and then accelerate at 500g for 5 minutes the mines would be 225,000 kms behind your current position!

That is 3/4's of a light second. These mines you dropped only a few minutes ago are now no longer in supporting range to protect your ship[s]/fleet.

Acceleration is one of the most important defensive measures in the Honorverse. Without changing vector, velocity and heading a ship/fleet becomes a predictable, easy target. Two examples of ships getting taken out on predictable, unvarying courses are Thunder of God(Saladin) and Honor's victory at Cerebus.

As for creating a 'wall in space' this is a complete non-starter.

When I tried to calculate how many superdreadnought/big tug wedges (300km a side) it would take to shield a planet (from 'ballistic' attacks originating from a single fixed direction) I found that the answer was at least two thousand for any realistic arrangement.

To shield a wall of battle? Using 1km square wedges? The number is well into the high millions.

Now if you want to suggest something the size of a toaster oven that generates a SD wedge using a 9v battery then please forward your designs to Adm. Sonia Hemphill at BuWeaps, I'm sure she'll be very interested, because current Manticore technology is not quite up to producing these miracle drones just yet.

Lord Skimper wrote:Although one must remember each mine is a light weight system made to last an engagement or two not a lifetime of the ship. Weak wedge with aft mounted weapon, either a heavy SD PD individual laser to ultra light LAC individual laser. With lots of them they cluster together. Heavy mines suitably larger than light ones.

The mines use a very weak, light wedge. And when near stationary can form a wall with near vertical 180 or so degree wedges and tiny kilt opening which it fires through. Keeps communications fully open with the guarded ships and arrow slits to the incoming missiles they are shooting at. Light wedges will slow them down, but they only need to keep up with the miniscule accelerations of the ships not the missiles. Less than 1% of missile accelerations. Ships will also be able to look through the weak mine wedges. While each wedge will cut the missiles incoming sensors.

Each tiny light weight PD mine will take up little space, a full SD(P) or tubed ship can carry thousands of these PD-Mines, lesser numbers of larger SD heavy PD mines. Mixed in with the rest. Longer range hard hitting slower firing but also good against LAC. Plus they will further deflect missile sensors with bright spots in the mine "wall".

Ships so protected will fire their own CM and PD through the gaps in the shield wall. With its passive sensors further enhanced to take in the additional sensor data the mines will provide. Not all that much, but more is always better than less.

... That's not right ... That's not even wrong.

BobfromSydney wrote:

Lord Skimper wrote:
<snip> pointless post

... That's not right ... That's not even wrong.

Since this was quoted (dammit!), I read it and once again, skimper shows his complete ignorance of How Things Work in the Honorverse. Why he is even here, I have no idea.

MaxxQ wrote:Since this was quoted (dammit!), I read it and once again, skimper shows his complete ignorance of How Things Work in the Honorverse. Why he is even here, I have no idea.

Because the powers that be think banning people for persistent stupidity sets a bad precedent, most likely.

Jonathan_S wrote:

The E wrote:
No, it can't. One, you're no longer talking about a missile, you're talking about something the size of a ghost rider drone, of which you can carry only a rather limited amount even on a Superdreadnought.
Two, in order to get any benefit at all from wedge interceptions, you have to maneuver those drones very close together, increasing the potential for fratricide among them.
Three, as a consequence of one and two, the area you can blanket with drones is strictly limited.
Four, this will do jack shit against an opponent who has heard of the term "Time on target bombardment from different positions", AKA what Moriarty is doing. It's also not going to help if the enemy deploys an ambush force on a divergent heading from you.

What you end up with is a system that is fairly easy to outmaneuver, extremely limited in terms of its capabilities, and which eats up space that could be used for proven systems while only providing a marginal (if that!) improvement over the current state of the art.

Now, some of those same criticisms also apply to the LAC screen. It too can only cover a limited area, but given that LACs are much more capable platforms, with missile intercepts being possible at a range of several hundred thousand kilometers (as opposed to the several tens of thousands kilometers these drone-mounted laser clusters could fire at), the area they can cover is vastly larger than what this drone screen can do, while at the same time not requiring the sacrifice of any combat ability on the part of the protected ships.

I'd quibble that your final sentence is technically true only if the CLAC or LAC base isn't one of the ships that needs protecting (because it's way off out of the way). Actually having LACs on had requires some ship or station to compromise a lot of hypothetical combat ability (compared to a podlayer of the same size) in order to carry and service LACs.

Or if you view it from the task group level you brought a CLAC or two to beef up your defenses. But if you'd swapped them one for one for SD(P)s you'd have more (offensive) combat ability.


Now none of that changes that Skimper's idea has massive other problems. But if someone designed a drone defense that was more effective than a LAC defense it'd make just as much sense to provide dedicated drone carriers as it does to provided dedicated LAC carriers. I don't think the need for them can really count as a serious strike against the idea when CLACs are already used. (Now I don't actually expect to see that, because I don't expect RFC to develop unmanned drones to surplant LACs in screening role)

If the choice is between a drone tender with drones for strictly defensive capabilities, and a CLAC with LACs for both defensive and offensive capabilities, then go with the CLAC and LACs, as it is more versatile and gives you more options.

Since the RMN prefers generalist over specialist designs, they would go for the CLAC and LACs combination as well.

Vince wrote:If the choice is between a drone tender with drones for strictly defensive capabilities, and a CLAC with LACs for both defensive and offensive capabilities, then go with the CLAC and LACs, as it is more versatile and gives you more options.

Since the RMN prefers generalist over specialist designs, they would go for the CLAC and LACs combination as well.

True. Even though LACs haven't had an onscreen chance to go offensive lately they're definitely more flexible that a hypothetical defense only drone.

The hypothetical drone would have to be a lot better defensively to justify giving up that flexibility.

Jonathan_S wrote:The hypothetical drone would have to be a lot better defensively to justify giving up that flexibility.

The fact that you don't need 1000+ really highly trained people to man them, and hence can accept plans where you lose all the drones is kind of nice. But they have to work before you can consider relative effectiveness/cost effectiveness.

BobfromSydney wrote:

Lord Skimper wrote:Having PD mines not being able to keep up isn't a problem if they can defeat missiles. Having maneuverability but getting killed because someone is shooting 1000's of missiles at you doesn't work. So you change your tactics.

It doesn't matter whether or not the mines can defeat missiles if they cannot defeat missiles in the area where the ship[s] are.

Remember that the range of the mines is tens of thousands of kilometres, hundreds at max. This means they are very short range in Honorverse terms. If you 'drop mines' and then accelerate at 500g for 5 minutes the mines would be 225,000 kms behind your current position!

That is 3/4's of a light second. These mines you dropped only a few minutes ago are now no longer in supporting range to protect your ship[s]/fleet.

Acceleration is one of the most important defensive measures in the Honorverse. Without changing vector, velocity and heading a ship/fleet becomes a predictable, easy target. Two examples of ships getting taken out on predictable, unvarying courses are Thunder of God(Saladin) and Honor's victory at Cerebus.

As for creating a 'wall in space' this is a complete non-starter.

When I tried to calculate how many superdreadnought/big tug wedges (300km a side) it would take to shield a planet (from 'ballistic' attacks originating from a single fixed direction) I found that the answer was at least two thousand for any realistic arrangement.

To shield a wall of battle? Using 1km square wedges? The number is well into the high millions.

Now if you want to suggest something the size of a toaster oven that generates a SD wedge using a 9v battery then please forward your designs to Adm. Sonia Hemphill at BuWeaps, I'm sure she'll be very interested, because current Manticore technology is not quite up to producing these miracle drones just yet.

Read my previous last post I address this.

A half or third length missile sized drone, with a smaller wedge capable of 3000-30,000g. The mine can be anywhere the ships are and missiles are at the same time. Carried and launched from a pod. Add a couple larger Apollo sized SD level vs the light LAC level singular not clustered, PD.

They cluster fire in the mine field.

A pod could carry 1-3 SD singular PD lasers. Not made for 30+ year deployment but a 1-2 engagement deployment. And 3 doubled to 6 or tripled to 9, small light PD singular lasers.

Carrying at a minimal level, 1 SD and 3 light mines, you get 4 per pod. An Invictus can carry and launch just under 4300. With twice that, ~8600 and at triple levels ~12900.

Now we know that a Mk23 missile is at least 2 metres in diameter and 10-15 metres long. A single laser from a cluster light weight parts mini fusion, sensors and a light weight version of a drone wedge/missile wedge. Add in some minor telemetry about what a small missile has, which already had most of this.

For Apollo, add in the SD single laser of a cluster. No FTL, no big wedge, similar sensors and telemetry to the smaller mine and some additional grouping control links. Not quite Apollo level but more a control group firing, block firing solutions. Kind of like flack but for missiles not planes. SD level would have longer range and be useful against LAC.

Unlike LAC these pods could be carried by any pod layer, and mixed in with other pod types.

Per Invictus. Assuming 6 light mines and 1 heavy. 324 mine pods would give a defensive mine strength of 2268 mines and 750 Apollo plus 6000 Mk23.


That is 15 salvos of Apollo missiles with 2268 defensive mines. 324 SD level
PD is equal to 108 triple SD Clusters, and 324 six light PD Clusters. Per Invictus. No CLAC, no LAC, and if not used up reusable.

50 Invictus would be able to deploy 113,400 mines. And still carry 300,000 Mk23 plus 37500 Apollo.

At a miniscule 18% interception rate 113,400 mines would reduce incoming missile salvos by 21000 missiles each. About all outgoing missiles assuming same tech level, ship numbers etc...per salvo.

With 50 SD(P) assuming 2000 LAC one would require at least 17 CLAC. 17 additional SD(P), would offer a 34% greater salvo size. And similar crew levels.