Apollo defense possibilities

If you're willing to sacrifice almost all of your missiles just to defend (the countermissiles and the shipkillers), might it be possible to do a modified version of the Triple Ripple (nuclear firewall to blow holes in the incoming missile storm) Shannon and Thiesman came up with to defeat Manticore's first major uses of the MDM? Until the SLN (assuming it lasts long enough to develop proper MDMs and control relays to guide them), doing as much as they can to retard the GA missile storm would possibly blunt the edge of the attack and require a lot more missiles to overcome an enemy. At the least it might force the attacking force to use some of the Dragons and Dazzlers much earlier and give point defense a better chance at taking down incoming missiles.

Zakharra wrote:If you're willing to sacrifice almost all of your missiles just to defend (the countermissiles and the shipkillers), might it be possible to do a modified version of the Triple Ripple (nuclear firewall to blow holes in the incoming missile storm) Shannon and Thiesman came up with to defeat Manticore's first major uses of the MDM? Until the SLN (assuming it lasts long enough to develop proper MDMs and control relays to guide them), doing as much as they can to retard the GA missile storm would possibly blunt the edge of the attack and require a lot more missiles to overcome an enemy. At the least it might force the attacking force to use some of the Dragons and Dazzlers much earlier and give point defense a better chance at taking down incoming missiles.

It's not possible, unless the SLN missiles are proper proximity/contact nukes instead of bomb-pumped lasers. They might have those in stock, but I doubt the Cataphracts come with contact warheads and any previous missile designs are going to be even more inferior in speed, range and tracking abilities than those.

And even if they did come up with a Triple Ripple(Tripple?) trick, the RMN has already encountered it and created an evasion sequence designed to prevent it from working.

munroburton wrote:

Zakharra wrote:If you're willing to sacrifice almost all of your missiles just to defend (the countermissiles and the shipkillers), might it be possible to do a modified version of the Triple Ripple (nuclear firewall to blow holes in the incoming missile storm) Shannon and Thiesman came up with to defeat Manticore's first major uses of the MDM? Until the SLN (assuming it lasts long enough to develop proper MDMs and control relays to guide them), doing as much as they can to retard the GA missile storm would possibly blunt the edge of the attack and require a lot more missiles to overcome an enemy. At the least it might force the attacking force to use some of the Dragons and Dazzlers much earlier and give point defense a better chance at taking down incoming missiles.

It's not possible, unless the SLN missiles are proper proximity/contact nukes instead of bomb-pumped lasers. They might have those in stock, but I doubt the Cataphracts come with contact warheads and any previous missile designs are going to be even more inferior in speed, range and tracking abilities than those.

And even if they did come up with a Triple Ripple(Tripple?) trick, the RMN has already encountered it and created an evasion sequence designed to prevent it from working.

I'm just spinning some ideas off the top of my head. How practical they are, I do not know. There are a few things the SLN might be able to do to improve those chances. Since the SLN doesn't have any LACs worth building or using, giving the shipkiller missiles better seeking capacity/ability might help. Rather than targeting the enemy ships, they could be targeting the missiles themselves. With an improved self guidance capability (it wouldn't necessarily have to be that good, just an improved seeking of 10-30% (tweaking of software?)would allow them to better target the missiles.

I haven't checked how large counter missiles are to shipkiller capital missiles, but would it be possible to use a capital missile as a carrier to carry two or three counter missiles closer to the incoming missiles? Rather than having lazing rods, it has several CMs, and when they get close enough, the capital missile split apart and launches the counter missiles one at a time, so the CM wedges don't interact and blow each other. Kind of like this: http://well-of-souls.com/gallery/images/outsider082.jpg (I didn't know if I could post pictures, but here is the link to the picture.) I know what I am envisioning wouldn't have a lot of CMs in it, but this is the jist of my thought.

This could extend the range of CMs a lot further at the cost of nearly all of the offensive capability. But since the SLN doesn't necessarily have MDMs of a good quality, it would be a waste to use that anyways and better to defend and force the GA to expend a lot more missiles to kill SLN ships. A greater defense in depth, forcing the GA to use some of it's countermeasures much earlier.

Using nuclear contact heads closer in, when the GA missiles have to be more packed together (because inertia still affects things, even missiles) could take out more of the incoming missiles. Yet at the cost of EM for the defenders.

I'm aware that these ideas aren't necessarily feasible, or practical, but I am trying to think of possible lower tech ways of negating some of the impact of the GA's current superiority. Right now, if there was some way to block or jam the FTL, jam the gravitonic 'airways' so to speak, that would mess with the GA's ability to control their missiles. Since the SLN doesn't have to worry about FTL for their own use, coming up with a way to jam the 'airways' could be a great benefit for them. or at least blunt the edge of the GA has. They can't be the only ones coming up with new ideas.

Zakharra wrote:I'm just spinning some ideas off the top of my head. How practical they are, I do not know. There are a few things the SLN might be able to do to improve those chances. Since the SLN doesn't have any LACs worth building or using, giving the shipkiller missiles better seeking capacity/ability might help. Rather than targeting the enemy ships, they could be targeting the missiles themselves. With an improved self guidance capability (it wouldn't necessarily have to be that good, just an improved seeking of 10-30% (tweaking of software?)would allow them to better target the missiles.

Hmm. It occurs to me that a pure escort missile defense LAC should be within League construction capabilities.

Now if they don't make any breakthroughs in node development the LACs would be barely as fast as their wallers. That would make it more annoying to use them as a screen, but probably isn't a dealbreaker.

And for anti-missile screen you don't need much endurance, so an off-the-shelf LAC fusion reactor should be fine. Just stuff it full of CMs and tack a PDLC or two on.


You'd need a CLAC of some sort to lug them along, but you don't really need Shrike, or even original Cimetiere class, level tech to make a useful CM LAC. (Just a random thought)

Jonathan_S wrote:Hmm. It occurs to me that a pure escort missile defense LAC should be within League construction capabilities.

Now if they don't make any breakthroughs in node development the LACs would be barely as fast as their wallers. That would make it more annoying to use them as a screen, but probably isn't a dealbreaker.

It's not the nodes that make Shrikes faster than destroyers--it is the power generator. Old-style LACs simply couldn't generate enough power to take full advantage of the acceleration their inertial compensators could handle. The breakthrough was the Grayson fission generators.

But you're right, by itself this isn't necessarily a deal-breaker. Even old-style LACs, modified to be purely counter-missile platforms, could help defend a Solarian wall of battle.

There are a number of other weaknesses in the old-style LACs, though:
* They require a lot more manpower than Shrikes (30 people? Not sure).
* They are not nearly as stealthy as Shrikes; combined with the larger crews, this would mean much larger casualty rates.
* They have no internal magazines--the counter-missiles will have to be in external box launchers, like the old LAC shipkillers were.
* They are physically much larger than Shrike; a LAC Carrier would probably carry less than half as many.

Still, counter-missile LACs are within the technological capability of the Solarian League. I think they would be feasible, and would provide some degree of protection.

SWM wrote:It's not the nodes that make Shrikes faster than destroyers--it is the power generator. Old-style LACs simply couldn't generate enough power to take full advantage of the acceleration their inertial compensators could handle. The breakthrough was the Grayson fission generators.

A first-gen Cimmetre (which had a fusion plant) wasn't outclassed that terribly.

Jonathan_S wrote:

Zakharra wrote:I'm just spinning some ideas off the top of my head. How practical they are, I do not know. There are a few things the SLN might be able to do to improve those chances. Since the SLN doesn't have any LACs worth building or using, giving the shipkiller missiles better seeking capacity/ability might help. Rather than targeting the enemy ships, they could be targeting the missiles themselves. With an improved self guidance capability (it wouldn't necessarily have to be that good, just an improved seeking of 10-30% (tweaking of software?)would allow them to better target the missiles.

Hmm. It occurs to me that a pure escort missile defense LAC should be within League construction capabilities.

Now if they don't make any breakthroughs in node development the LACs would be barely as fast as their wallers. That would make it more annoying to use them as a screen, but probably isn't a dealbreaker.

And for anti-missile screen you don't need much endurance, so an off-the-shelf LAC fusion reactor should be fine. Just stuff it full of CMs and tack a PDLC or two on.


You'd need a CLAC of some sort to lug them along, but you don't really need Shrike, or even original Cimetiere class, level tech to make a useful CM LAC. (Just a random thought)

You could almost get that with destroyers(DD)stuffed to the gills with CM launchers and have several lines of those stacked out in front of the SDs. It can spit out more CMs and control them better. Of course it might be more of a target though because it is bigger than a LAC.

A question, would it be possible to have a LAC, even at the level the SL can build them at, that can control more missiles than normal? Sacrifice offensive/defensive capacity for control/command functions for controlling the hordes of CMs being launched.

Or... this might be a one shot thing, but if C/C functions can be routed through a LAC or DD and those ships being closer to the battle line, make them the ones controlling the missiles, with alternatives in the likely case the controlling ships are blown out of the sky.

I like the idea of LACs being used as defense. The RMN used them to great effect. It shouldn't be hard for the SLN to devise their own versions. Less effective to be sure, but much much easier to build, man and get into battle.

SWM wrote:

Jonathan_S wrote:Hmm. It occurs to me that a pure escort missile defense LAC should be within League construction capabilities.

Now if they don't make any breakthroughs in node development the LACs would be barely as fast as their wallers. That would make it more annoying to use them as a screen, but probably isn't a dealbreaker.

It's not the nodes that make Shrikes faster than destroyers--it is the power generator. Old-style LACs simply couldn't generate enough power to take full advantage of the acceleration their inertial compensators could handle. The breakthrough was the Grayson fission generators.

But you're right, by itself this isn't necessarily a deal-breaker. Even old-style LACs, modified to be purely counter-missile platforms, could help defend a Solarian wall of battle.

There are a number of other weaknesses in the old-style LACs, though:
* They require a lot more manpower than Shrikes (30 people? Not sure).
* They are not nearly as stealthy as Shrikes; combined with the larger crews, this would mean much larger casualty rates.
* They have no internal magazines--the counter-missiles will have to be in external box launchers, like the old LAC shipkillers were.
* They are physically much larger than Shrike; a LAC Carrier would probably carry less than half as many.

Still, counter-missile LACs are within the technological capability of the Solarian League. I think they would be feasible, and would provide some degree of protection.

Kind of like pod launched counter-missiles (CMs)?

drothgery wrote:

SWM wrote:It's not the nodes that make Shrikes faster than destroyers--it is the power generator. Old-style LACs simply couldn't generate enough power to take full advantage of the acceleration their inertial compensators could handle. The breakthrough was the Grayson fission generators.

A first-gen Cimmetre (which had a fusion plant) wasn't outclassed that terribly.

Good point. We don't know a lot of details about the Cimeterre. It apparently had "almost as good an acceleration rate" as the Shrike. And in the first generation, they managed it with a fusion generator. And it had internal rotary-magazine launchers, with a large magazine. The endurance was a mere 96 hours, but that is plenty for this role.

Something like the Cimeterre is probably possible within the technology of the Solarian League, though it would take a bit more R&D (and someone willing to try radical ideas).

Zakharra wrote:

SWM wrote:It's not the nodes that make Shrikes faster than destroyers--it is the power generator. Old-style LACs simply couldn't generate enough power to take full advantage of the acceleration their inertial compensators could handle. The breakthrough was the Grayson fission generators.

But you're right, by itself this isn't necessarily a deal-breaker. Even old-style LACs, modified to be purely counter-missile platforms, could help defend a Solarian wall of battle.

There are a number of other weaknesses in the old-style LACs, though:
* They require a lot more manpower than Shrikes (30 people? Not sure).
* They are not nearly as stealthy as Shrikes; combined with the larger crews, this would mean much larger casualty rates.
* They have no internal magazines--the counter-missiles will have to be in external box launchers, like the old LAC shipkillers were.
* They are physically much larger than Shrike; a LAC Carrier would probably carry less than half as many.

Still, counter-missile LACs are within the technological capability of the Solarian League. I think they would be feasible, and would provide some degree of protection.

Kind of like pod launched counter-missiles (CMs)?

Well, sort of. Except that LACs have their own drives, can station themselves far in advance of the wall of battle, provide their own fire-control in close proximity to the counter-missiles (i.e. short control loop), and can return to the fleet on their own for reuse.

I'm not arguing against counter-missile pods here. But there are significant differences between that and defensive LACs. The biggest of which is limits on fire control.