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Caslet.....

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Re: Caslet.....
Post by Mitchell, Esq.   » Tue Jul 15, 2014 9:08 am

Mitchell, Esq.
Commodore

Posts: 806
Joined: Wed Dec 08, 2010 9:14 pm

I think Caslet is a problem that the RoH would like to avoid addressing at this time.

An officer in the People's Navy who defected under threat from State Sec who then ended up as an officer in a foreign nobleman's personal navy...that ended up fighting against his former country - which, by the way, is under new management... of people who overthrew the government he fled for similar reasons.

Caslet?

Who?

Never heard of him.

So... about the Mean Alignment....

If he wanted to visit Haven, I doubt anything is going to happen for the simple reason he's likely assigned to a capitol ship that would be Most Displeased if a senior officer assigned to said ship was detained for what was essentially saving Honor Harrington's ass a while ago.

Yeah. Detain him. That will go over SO well...

"The release of Nuclear Weapons has been authorized." Well...
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Re: Caslet.....
Post by hanuman   » Tue Jul 15, 2014 12:24 pm

hanuman
Captain of the List

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Mitchell, Esq. wrote:I think Caslet is a problem that the RoH would like to avoid addressing at this time.

An officer in the People's Navy who defected under threat from State Sec who then ended up as an officer in a foreign nobleman's personal navy...that ended up fighting against his former country - which, by the way, is under new management... of people who overthrew the government he fled for similar reasons.

Caslet?

Who?

Never heard of him.

So... about the Mean Alignment....

If he wanted to visit Haven, I doubt anything is going to happen for the simple reason he's likely assigned to a capitol ship that would be Most Displeased if a senior officer assigned to said ship was detained for what was essentially saving Honor Harrington's ass a while ago.

Yeah. Detain him. That will go over SO well...

"The release of Nuclear Weapons has been authorized." Well...


I think we all forget just how radically the astropolitical situation has changed. Should Caslet ever express a wish to visit his family, I suspect that he will be welcomed as a hero by the vast majority of Havenites.

Remember Honor's current stature in Haven, after everything she has done to make a fair resolution of the war between Haven and Manticore possible - and since Caslet helped save her life, the Havenites are likely to forgive him for defecting in the first place.

It's human nature: we like this 'final' outcome, so we like anyone who helped make it possible, maybe especially those of US who were involved. After all, the precedent of Pritchart and Theisman already exists.
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Re: Caslet.....
Post by Michael Everett   » Tue Jul 15, 2014 4:59 pm

Michael Everett
Admiral

Posts: 2619
Joined: Tue Nov 03, 2009 3:54 am
Location: Bristol, England

roseandheather wrote:
Weird Harold wrote:"Treason never prospers. For if it prospers, none dare call it treason." -- Ben Franklin(?)

Or, as a particular Revolutionary War musical says, "Treason is a charge invented by the winners as an excuse for hanging the losers." :mrgreen:

There is only one defence against the charge of treason...

Success.
~~~~~~

I can't write anywhere near as well as Weber
But I try nonetheless, And even do my own artwork.

(Now on Twitter)and mentioned by RFC!
ACNH Dreams at DA-6594-0940-7995
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Re: Caslet.....
Post by Bahzellstudent   » Tue Jul 15, 2014 5:00 pm

Bahzellstudent
Lieutenant Commander

Posts: 100
Joined: Wed Jul 09, 2014 4:13 pm
Location: Derbyshire, United Kingdom

hanuman wrote:
Mitchell, Esq. wrote:I think Caslet is a problem that the RoH would like to avoid addressing at this time.

An officer in the People's Navy who defected under threat from State Sec who then ended up as an officer in a foreign nobleman's personal navy...that ended up fighting against his former country - which, by the way, is under new management... of people who overthrew the government he fled for similar reasons.

Caslet?

Who?

Never heard of him.

So... about the Mean Alignment....

If he wanted to visit Haven, I doubt anything is going to happen for the simple reason he's likely assigned to a capitol ship that would be Most Displeased if a senior officer assigned to said ship was detained for what was essentially saving Honor Harrington's ass a while ago.

Yeah. Detain him. That will go over SO well...

"The release of Nuclear Weapons has been authorized." Well...


I think we all forget just how radically the astropolitical situation has changed. Should Caslet ever express a wish to visit his family, I suspect that he will be welcomed as a hero by the vast majority of Havenites.

Remember Honor's current stature in Haven, after everything she has done to make a fair resolution of the war between Haven and Manticore possible - and since Caslet helped save her life, the Havenites are likely to forgive him for defecting in the first place.

It's human nature: we like this 'final' outcome, so we like anyone who helped make it possible, maybe especially those of US who were involved. After all, the precedent of Pritchart and Theisman already exists.


Exactly so - most of the powers that be in Haven are now 100% supporters of Honor now that they know how the Mesan Alignment manipulated the resumption of hostilities. So certainly Caslet visiting Haven would I suspect be welcomed - however, giving him an official pardon might still be too big a nut to swallow.
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Re: Caslet.....
Post by wetnavy   » Tue Jul 15, 2014 5:18 pm

wetnavy
Ensign

Posts: 11
Joined: Sun Jul 13, 2014 8:02 pm

In Echos of Honor, Parnell says to Caslett:

Parnell smiled sadly.
"Treason comes hard even now, doesn't it, Commander?" he asked gently. "Here I sit, aiding and abetting the Republic's enemies in time of war, and that disappoints you. It's not what you expected from an admiral who's sworn an oath to defend it, is it?"
"Sir, your decisions have to be your own," Caslet began. He was white-faced under his tan, and his eyes were troubled. "God knows I have no right to judge you. And from what you've just said, the people running the Republic now are traitors, as well as monsters and mass murderers. I haven't— I mean, I've thought about it myself. But like you, I swore an oath, and it's my country, Sir! If I break faith with that, I break faith with myself . . . and then what do I have left?"
"Son," Parnell said compassionately, "you don't have a country anymore. If you ever went home again, you'd wind up right back here—or dead, more likely—because nothing you could possibly say could excuse you for sitting here in this room with these people . . . and me. And I'll tell you something else, Commander. From what you've just said to me, I can tell you that you're better than the Republic deserves, because you're still loyal to it, and it's never been loyal to you. It wasn't when people like me ran it, and it sure as hell isn't now."
"I can't accept that, Sir," Caslet said hoarsely, but Honor felt the torment within him. The pain and disillusionment and, even more than either of those things, the agonizing suspicion that he could accept it. Indeed, that the core of him already had. And that suspicion terrified Warner Caslet, for if it were true, it would drive him inexorably towards a decision, force him to take control and forge purposefully and knowingly in the direction in which he had so far only drifted.
"Maybe you can't," Parnell said after a moment, allowing him to cling to the lie—for now, at least—if he chose. "But that doesn't make anything I've just said untrue, Commander. Still, I suppose a little of that same idealism still clings to me, too. What an amazing thing." He shook his head. "Forty years of naval service, dozens of cold-blooded campaigns under my belt—hell, I'm the one who drew up the plans to begin this war! I screwed them up, of course, but I was damned straight the one who authorized 'em. And eight more years here on Hell, on top of all that. And still there's something down inside me that insists the drunk-rolling whore I served is a great, shining lady who deserves to have me lay down my life in her defense."
He sighed and shook his head again.
"But she isn't, son. Not anymore. Maybe someday she will be again, and it's going to take men and women like you—people who stay loyal to her and fight for her from within—to bring that about. But they'll have to be people like you, Commodore. You can't be one of them anymore . . . and neither can I. Because however we may feel about her, she'll kill us both in an instant if she ever gets her hands on us again."





Later, Caslett makes his decision. With the approach of statesec ship to cerebus, Honor needs someone who 'sounds like a peep' and Caslett volunteers. She asks him why.

"Admiral Parnell is right, Ma'am," he said simply. "I can't go home because the butchers running my country won't let me. Which means the only thing I can do for the Republic is fight it from the outside. Didn't someone once say that we always hurt the one we love?"
The tone was humorous; the emotions behind it were not, and Honor wanted to weep for him.
"And if the Committee and State Security are overthrown?" she asked. "You're starting down a dangerous slope, Warner. Even if the 'butchers' are thrown out of office, the people who replace them will probably never trust you again. Might even consider you a traitor."
"I've thought about that," he agreed. "And you're right. If I cross the line to active collaboration with you, I'll never be able to go home. But if I don't cross it, all that's left for me would be to stand around doing nothing, and I've discovered I can't do that." Honor felt a stab of surprise as he echoed her own thoughts of only moments before, but he didn't seem to notice.
"That's the downside of the freedom of choice Admiral Parnell was talking about," he went on. "Once you've got it, you can't live with yourself very comfortably if you refuse to exercise it." He drew a deep breath, and his smile turned almost natural. "Besides, I've heard a lot about Captain Yu from Admiral Parnell in the last few weeks. If he could have the guts to not only take service with the Allies but actually go back to Grayson to do it, then so can I, by God! If you'll let me, of course."



Even if Pritchard and Theisman accepted him back, and the story of how he wound up on cerberus and why were public knowledge, he wouldn't be accepted by the rank and file of the navy. “We stuck it out, we survivied. You ran to the enemy.” That would be the general feeling. Navy personnel wouldn't do anything about, but that attitude would be very evident. The public would feel the same but wouldn't be constrained by the military code of conduct. So, a fight or two, maybe escalating into a group beating, if Caslett were lucky. Otherwise, a knife in a back alley somewhere. And the same would happen to Yu.
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Re: Caslet.....
Post by hanuman   » Tue Jul 15, 2014 5:25 pm

hanuman
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wetnavy wrote:Even if Pritchard and Theisman accepted him back, and the story of how he wound up on cerberus and why were public knowledge, he wouldn't be accepted by the rank and file of the navy. “We stuck it out, we survivied. You ran to the enemy.” That would be the general feeling. Navy personnel wouldn't do anything about, but that attitude would be very evident. The public would feel the same but wouldn't be constrained by the military code of conduct. So, a fight or two, maybe escalating into a group beating, if Caslett were lucky. Otherwise, a knife in a back alley somewhere. And the same would happen to Yu.


We'll have to agree to disagree on this point. My feeling is that the situation has changed enough that Caslet would be forgiven for deserting. But that's my opinion, and I tend to fall more on the optimistic side of realism.
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Re: Caslet.....
Post by wetnavy   » Tue Jul 15, 2014 6:53 pm

wetnavy
Ensign

Posts: 11
Joined: Sun Jul 13, 2014 8:02 pm

hanuman wrote:
We'll have to agree to disagree on this point. My feeling is that the situation has changed enough that Caslet would be forgiven for deserting. But that's my opinion, and I tend to fall more on the optimistic side of realism.


No problem, I tend to fall on the more pessimistic side. At best, Caslet would be ignored completely, given no respect but no overt antagonism either. I would think that people who survived the previous regime would develop a deep patriotism for the new one, especially with the economic and social progress being made. There would be pride at it's accomplishments and the efforts made by it's military. But I still believe there would be a core of resentment for any reminders of statesec and the committee. Some would feel shame that they allowed something like that to happen even though they couldn't do anything about it. It wouldn't even matter what Caslet did so much as what he represents, a good man who was forced to betray his people and his oath.
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Re: Caslet.....
Post by SpaceManSpiff   » Tue Jul 15, 2014 8:21 pm

SpaceManSpiff
Lieutenant (Junior Grade)

Posts: 26
Joined: Wed Jun 25, 2014 6:25 pm

wetnavy wrote:
hanuman wrote:
We'll have to agree to disagree on this point. My feeling is that the situation has changed enough that Caslet would be forgiven for deserting. But that's my opinion, and I tend to fall more on the optimistic side of realism.


No problem, I tend to fall on the more pessimistic side. At best, Caslet would be ignored completely, given no respect but no overt antagonism either. I would think that people who survived the previous regime would develop a deep patriotism for the new one, especially with the economic and social progress being made. There would be pride at it's accomplishments and the efforts made by it's military. But I still believe there would be a core of resentment for any reminders of statesec and the committee. Some would feel shame that they allowed something like that to happen even though they couldn't do anything about it. It wouldn't even matter what Caslet did so much as what he represents, a good man who was forced to betray his people and his oath.



All the more reason to hold him up as a hero.
Look at what Theisman did, he's considered a hero isn't he?
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Re: Caslet.....
Post by wetnavy   » Tue Jul 15, 2014 9:05 pm

wetnavy
Ensign

Posts: 11
Joined: Sun Jul 13, 2014 8:02 pm

SpaceManSpiff wrote:[

All the more reason to hold him up as a hero.
Look at what Theisman did, he's considered a hero isn't he?



Theisman defended the Republic, repatriated the constitution, led it's navy and overthrew a corrupt regime. To Havenites, he's a hero.

Caslet saved Honor Harrington, helped her kill Havenites in battle of cerebus and marsh. He collaborated with and defected to the enemy. Is he a hero to Grayston and Manticore? Yes. To Haven? Not so much.
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Re: Caslet.....
Post by hanuman   » Tue Jul 15, 2014 9:18 pm

hanuman
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Posts: 643
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wetnavy wrote:
SpaceManSpiff wrote:[

All the more reason to hold him up as a hero.
Look at what Theisman did, he's considered a hero isn't he?



Theisman defended the Republic, repatriated the constitution, led it's navy and overthrew a corrupt regime. To Havenites, he's a hero.

Caslet saved Honor Harrington, helped her kill Havenites in battle of cerebus and marsh. He collaborated with and defected to the enemy. Is he a hero to Grayston and Manticore? Yes. To Haven? Not so much.


Wetnavy, we're starting to get stuck in a circular argument here. Yes, Caslet fought against the RHN at Sidemore, but by that time he was no longer considered - either legally or morally - a Havenite. He was sworn to the service of the Sword and a Grayson citizen.

I think that, given the Theisman coup and the restoration of the Republic of Haven, Havenites would be far more forgiving than you give them credit for. Most people would understand that Caslet broke oath to a murderous regime that consisted of a bunch of traitors, and therefore his oath to the Committee was worthless in the first place.

Yes, there will of course be some Havenites who will continue to regard him as a traitor, but I think most will understand that he didn't have a choice (unless he wanted to be murdered), that he didn't swear an oath to uphold the Republic's Constitution, and that when he fought at Sidemore, he did so as a liegeman of the Protector.

Humans are fallible creatures, and we can hold grudges till Kingdom come, but we are also capable of acts of incredible compassion and understanding, and I choose to think that, where circumstances make it possible, most people would opt for forgiveness instead of hate.
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