Crew Complement by class range?

Weird Harold wrote:

Vince wrote:IIRC, when the mandarins get word about Byng's demise at New Tuscany (one SLN Nevada class BC), one of them mentions that more than 3000 were killed in the incident.

For comparison, contrast that number with the largest RMN BC before automation and the BCP. The RMN Reliant class BCs had a complement of 2105 including Marines. (From The Short Victorious War, Honor Harrington's Navy.)

The SLNS Jean Bart was ADM Byng's flagship, so the casualty numbers would include his flag staff; the manning levels would be fairly close without the additional flag personnel.

A flag staff is not going to be a significant addition to a ships company. Certainly not adding in neighborhood of a thousand additional personnel may be at most 1%-2% of a ships company and over 5% is so over done to be ridiculous

saber964 wrote: over done to be ridiculous

SLN battle fleet motto.

saber964 wrote:A flag staff is not going to be a significant addition to a ships company. Certainly not adding in neighborhood of a thousand additional personnel may be at most 1%-2% of a ships company and over 5% is so over done to be ridiculous

We are talking about a SLN Flag Staff, aren't we? "so over done to be rediculous" sounds about right.

Weird Harold wrote:

saber964 wrote:A flag staff is not going to be a significant addition to a ships company. Certainly not adding in neighborhood of a thousand additional personnel may be at most 1%-2% of a ships company and over 5% is so over done to be ridiculous

We are talking about a SLN Flag Staff, aren't we? "so over done to be rediculous" sounds about right.

SLN flagstaff probably includes things like a culinary staff, cleaning staff, private medical staff. Possibly even masseuses. It could get pretty big IMO.

saber964 wrote:

Weird Harold wrote:The SLNS Jean Bart was ADM Byng's flagship, so the casualty numbers would include his flag staff; the manning levels would be fairly close without the additional flag personnel.

A flag staff is not going to be a significant addition to a ships company. Certainly not adding in neighborhood of a thousand additional personnel may be at most 1%-2% of a ships company and over 5% is so over done to be ridiculous

I wouldn't even try to use percentages to define how much of a ship's crew would make up the flag staff. It's obvious that flag staffs are more or less a fixed number largely irrelevant to the ship carrying them. A Roland has sixty or seventy crew... and a flag deck. A flag staff consists of the flag, chief of staff, ops officer, astrogator, com officer, intel, logistics and lieutenant - eight already. Add in their assistants, steward and yeomen clerks and guess what? 25% of the crew is there because a Commodore is.

Additionally, during some Manties' internal thinking regarding the layout of Solly flag bridges, it was implied there may be twice as many ratings compared to Manty flag bridges. It's not inconceivable that a SLN fleet flagship(such as Filareta's) would end up with a vast, bloated flag staff, considering that Filareta had three full Admirals on his staff, as well as a Commodore, each of whom might be entitled to a personal steward and flag lieutenant. That's before we start getting into the optionals, sinecures and dead-ends, like assistant public information officer lieutenant Maitland Askew(implying a public information officer between him and the Admiral) for a BC squadron flagship!

Even the leaner Allied flag staffs must have some depth, as they used to modify stock designs to make improved flag accommodations. The Benjamin the Great class of SDs stands out, as they were extended by nine metres and still had to lose a total of four graser mounts. Granted, a lot of the volume went into improved equipment, but still.

My guess is a fleet flagship has around two hundred extra personnel, with around fifty for squadron and divisional flagships. Even doubling those figures doesn't make enough of a dent in Jean Bart's crew list to bring it anywhere close to the RMN's pre-war crew standards, however.

Quotes reordered to avoid silly embedding limit.

Weird Harold wrote:The SLNS Jean Bart was ADM Byng's flagship, so the casualty numbers would include his flag staff; the manning levels would be fairly close without the additional flag personnel.

saber964 wrote:A flag staff is not going to be a significant addition to a ships company. Certainly not adding in neighborhood of a thousand additional personnel may be at most 1%-2% of a ships company and over 5% is so over done to be ridiculous

munroburton wrote:
I wouldn't even try to use percentages to define how much of a ship's crew would make up the flag staff. It's obvious that flag staffs are more or less a fixed number largely irrelevant to the ship carrying them. A Roland has sixty or seventy crew... and a flag deck. A flag staff consists of the flag, chief of staff, ops officer, astrogator, com officer, intel, logistics and lieutenant - eight already. Add in their assistants, steward and yeomen clerks and guess what? 25% of the crew is there because a Commodore is.

Additionally, during some Manties' internal thinking regarding the layout of Solly flag bridges, it was implied there may be twice as many ratings compared to Manty flag bridges. It's not inconceivable that a SLN fleet flagship(such as Filareta's) would end up with a vast, bloated flag staff, considering that Filareta had three full Admirals on his staff, as well as a Commodore, each of whom might be entitled to a personal steward and flag lieutenant. That's before we start getting into the optionals, sinecures and dead-ends, like assistant public information officer lieutenant Maitland Askew(implying a public information officer between him and the Admiral) for a BC squadron flagship!

Even the leaner Allied flag staffs must have some depth, as they used to modify stock designs to make improved flag accommodations. The Benjamin the Great class of SDs stands out, as they were extended by nine metres and still had to lose a total of four graser mounts. Granted, a lot of the volume went into improved equipment, but still.

My guess is a fleet flagship has around two hundred extra personnel, with around fifty for squadron and divisional flagships. Even doubling those figures doesn't make enough of a dent in Jean Bart's crew list to bring it anywhere close to the RMN's pre-war crew standards, however.

Another example of how standard ship designs are modified (and presumably give some idea of the additional manning a flag staff requires in the Honorverse) can be found in:

Field of Dishonor, Chapter 14 wrote:"Yes, My Lady," he returned just as formally. He crossed to her side and looked down into her visual display, then tapped the image of one of the battlecruisers. "That's the Courvosier herself. You can recognize her by the missing graser bay amidships. They left it out to free up mass for her flag accommodations and a full-scale fleet CIC. The other three should be Yountz, Yanakov, and Madrigal; together they form the First and Second Divisions."

Italics are the author's, boldface is my emphasis.

I'm guessing the full-scale fleet CIC requires additional personnel to man in comparison to a regular ship's CIC.

Duckk wrote:IIRC:

LAC (Alliance pre-Shrike): 30-50
LAC (Alliance post-Shrike): 10
DD: 300
CL: 500
CA: 1000
BC: 2000
DN: 4500
SD: 5000

Expect the numbers for SLN to run roughly 10%-20% higher; their SDs at least have been described as about 6000.

BTW, we should realize the implications of these numbers, SLN vs norm vs Manticore/Grayson/(Empire). The additional berthing space & life support has to come from somewhere, especially on SLN ships that tend to be lighter tonnage than Haven Sector ships of the last 20 years. They aren't especially short on weapon mounts (maybe occasionally short a couple compared to like size HS types), so that necessary cubage is gonna come from magazine depth, armor system, and some from mount/weapon size.

dreamrider

dreamrider wrote:
Expect the numbers for SLN to run roughly 10%-20% higher; their SDs at least have been described as about 6000.

BTW, we should realize the implications of these numbers, SLN vs norm vs Manticore/Grayson/(Empire). The additional berthing space & life support has to come from somewhere, especially on SLN ships that tend to be lighter tonnage than Haven Sector ships of the last 20 years. They aren't especially short on weapon mounts (maybe occasionally short a couple compared to like size HS types), so that necessary cubage is gonna come from magazine depth, armor system, and some from mount/weapon size.

dreamrider

Or it could be coming from accomodation cubage per person (for enlisted and junior officers, obviously, we're not talking about skimping on the Admiral's staterooms here), fuel bunkerage and consumables storage, with implications for the ship's ability to operate away from a base or a significant fleet train.

Dafmeister wrote:

dreamrider wrote:
Expect the numbers for SLN to run roughly 10%-20% higher; their SDs at least have been described as about 6000.

BTW, we should realize the implications of these numbers, SLN vs norm vs Manticore/Grayson/(Empire). The additional berthing space & life support has to come from somewhere, especially on SLN ships that tend to be lighter tonnage than Haven Sector ships of the last 20 years. They aren't especially short on weapon mounts (maybe occasionally short a couple compared to like size HS types), so that necessary cubage is gonna come from magazine depth, armor system, and some from mount/weapon size.

dreamrider

Or it could be coming from accomodation cubage per person (for enlisted and junior officers, obviously, we're not talking about skimping on the Admiral's staterooms here), fuel bunkerage and consumables storage, with implications for the ship's ability to operate away from a base or a significant fleet train.

Sure, I'll take it. My point being that the higher manning levels are limiting one or more of the less obvious but essential capabilities of the burdened ships.

On the other hand, as we know, the tradeoff for lower manpower is less capability for intervention forces, SAR, any tangential mission aside from ship operation, presence, and shooting. Honor would have been SOL for most of what she accomplished in Basilisk if she had commanded an experimental proto-Roland (of course, Sirius would have been also <grin>.)

dreamrider

Hmm - just had the thought.

Couldn't older CLACs be converted pretty easily to a Fleet Marine Force ship able to hold easily with a deployed TF? I mean I know there is probably a dedicated battle transport in the works, and the Kammerling cruisers, but a few on-hand, quick-convert, regimental- lift haulers wouldn't hurt the posture, especially now.

It would be nice to see the old Minotaur again.

dreamrider