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Reginald Houseman

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Re: Reginald Houseman
Post by Crown Loyalist   » Sun Jun 08, 2014 1:10 am

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cthia wrote:Agreed. Quite frankly, I do think it ironic that he didn't know game theory because it actually would have given him more ammunition to logically distort his arguments. Game theory encourages the partnership of players; it is the cogent approach. Houseman could have used that point as a bases for his arguments. Erroneously, however, because one other serious weakness of the theory is applying it to religious subject matter! There is no way in hell that game theory can be used to predict anything to do with the outcome of one much less two religious contestants. Um, devoutly religious.


Sure it can. You just have to build a model of the effect of religiosity on incentive structures. It wouldn't be easy, and if you succeeded in it you wouldn't really be saying anything that couldn't be said more easily and clearly elsewhere, but there's no reason you couldn't use game theory for it.
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Re: Reginald Houseman
Post by cthia   » Sun Jun 08, 2014 1:26 am

cthia
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Crown Loyalist wrote:
cthia wrote:Agreed. Quite frankly, I do think it ironic that he didn't know game theory because it actually would have given him more ammunition to logically distort his arguments. Game theory encourages the partnership of players; it is the cogent approach. Houseman could have used that point as a bases for his arguments. Erroneously, however, because one other serious weakness of the theory is applying it to religious subject matter! There is no way in hell that game theory can be used to predict anything to do with the outcome of one much less two religious contestants. Um, devoutly religious.


Sure it can. You just have to build a model of the effect of religiosity on incentive structures. It wouldn't be easy, and if you succeeded in it you wouldn't really be saying anything that couldn't be said more easily and clearly elsewhere, but there's no reason you couldn't use game theory for it.

Nu uh. Religion cannot be modeled. Game theory assumes certain givens. There are no certain givens in religious behaviour. How can you model the metaphysic? Herein again the limitations of game theory rearing its ugly head. Infinite vs finite representations. Individual religious assertions, even within one faith, are much too manifold. Too intangible to model, especially with game theory which has its inherent problems with complexity as it approaches the infinite.

Take five (Baptists, Methodists, Atheists, Catholics) put them on a table, Freud them, get five widely different diagnosis and views.

Edit:
Difficult to model something that has varying constants. Varying constants??? See?

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Last edited by cthia on Sun Jun 08, 2014 1:37 am, edited 2 times in total.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Reginald Houseman
Post by BobfromSydney   » Sun Jun 08, 2014 1:28 am

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Crown Loyalist wrote:
Sure it can. You just have to build a model of the effect of religiosity on incentive structures. It wouldn't be easy, and if you succeeded in it you wouldn't really be saying anything that couldn't be said more easily and clearly elsewhere, but there's no reason you couldn't use game theory for it.


In order to build a model of the effect of religiosity on the incentive structures you would have to learn about the universe around you through observation.
Houseman would rather than taking an Aristotelian approach where he assumes he can figure it all out in his own head because he is so much smarter than everyone else.
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Re: Reginald Houseman
Post by Crown Loyalist   » Sun Jun 08, 2014 9:22 am

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cthia wrote:Nu uh. Religion cannot be modeled. Game theory assumes certain givens. There are no certain givens in religious behaviour. How can you model the metaphysic? Herein again the limitations of game theory rearing its ugly head. Infinite vs finite representations. Individual religious assertions, even within one faith, are much too manifold. Too intangible to model, especially with game theory which has its inherent problems with complexity as it approaches the infinite.

Take five (Baptists, Methodists, Atheists, Catholics) put them on a table, Freud them, get five widely different diagnosis and views.

Edit:
Difficult to model something that has varying constants. Varying constants??? See?

.


It would be hard to the point of impossible, but that doesn't mean that it's logically impossible.
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Re: Reginald Houseman
Post by cthia   » Sun Jun 08, 2014 10:41 am

cthia
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Crown Loyalist wrote:
cthia wrote:Nu uh. Religion cannot be modeled. Game theory assumes certain givens. There are no certain givens in religious behaviour. How can you model the metaphysic? Herein again the limitations of game theory rearing its ugly head. Infinite vs finite representations. Individual religious assertions, even within one faith, are much too manifold. Too intangible to model, especially with game theory which has its inherent problems with complexity as it approaches the infinite.

Take five (Baptists, Methodists, Atheists, Catholics) put them on a table, Freud them, get five widely different diagnosis and views.

Edit:
Difficult to model something that has varying constants. Varying constants??? See?

.


It would be hard to the point of impossible, but that doesn't mean that it's logically impossible.


Logically impossible? Perhaps not. Currently impossible? I think yes. Unless someone some where is poised to publish resolution of a few hurdles in quantum mechanics, quantum economics, and quantum religion (quantum mysticism), because what you are proposing encompasses all three. Now granted, certain breakthroughs in quantum mechanics itself will reverberate throughout the associated disciplines, but will not completely solve all of the problems inherent in each discipline. Considering religion, I think those are obvious (To be or not to be a Deity)

In quantum economics are the same common problems of economics.
1. Wave duality.
2. Quantum entanglement
3. Observation of an undisturbed system. (Schrodinger's Cat err cut)

Funny Aside:
The CFO of one of my past companies had this hanging in one of her guest bathrooms...
Wiki wrote:
Quantum economics describes the behavior of fundamental particles. Some of these particles are listed below:

-Currençon. The currençon is the fundamental particle that mediates the force of monetism. All money can be quantized into currençons. A currençon can carry a credit charge or a debit charge.

-Politon. The politon is the fundamental particle that mediates the force of politics. Politons come in two flavours: Left-wing and Right-wing.

-Bozon. When a bozon accelerates, it emits morons and can create a field of ignorance.

In the most common formulation of quantum economics, various properties of a system of economic particles, such as profitability, sexiness, and virtue, are represented as probability functions. These functions are called wavefunctions (short for hand-waving-go-away-I-can’t-explain-it-functions). However, once a measurement or an observation is made of the system, the wave collapses. A “particle” exists as a wave until an observation is made. Until the observation is made, the particle’s position is indeterminate. Only until the observation is made do particle-like behaviors appear. This wave-particle duality is fundamental to quantum economics.

The above description perhaps can be simplified with an example. A corporation is a collection of currençons and bozons. These particles exist in an uncollapsed probabilistic state. Once an observation (or an audit) is made, then the probability wave collapses into either a profit or a loss. Thus, we have the following sequence:

1. Observation.
2. ???
3. PROFIT!!

How a probability wave collapses into profit is not known with our present day knowledge of quantum economics.

In some cases, an abundance of too many virtual currençons with too many real bozons causes the entire system to collapse into a state of bankruptcy when an observation is made. This economic phenomenon has been investigated by research labs at Enron, Global Crossing, HealthSouth, and WorldCom, despite the fact that the phenomenon is completely well understood.

In experiments, the theories of quantum economics have been proven to have the same validity as any other theory of economics. Some of the more well known quantum economic theories are outlined below.

Schrödinger’s Cut
Cubicle

Schrödinger’s Cut is one of the many types of quantum economic thought experiments that can be carried out in a cubicle.
Schrödinger’s Cut was a thought experiment proposed by Erwin Schrödinger. Consider a cubicle in which there is no method for an employer to observe the employee contained therein (a so called black box cubicle). An employee is then placed in such a cubicle with access to a corporation’s assets. While the actions of the employee are unmonitored, Schrödinger proposed that the employee existed both in a state of having embezzled and a state of honest work. Only by way of a painful audit can the wavefunction of the employee’s innocence collapse to a single classical economic state (a process called a cut collapse)


She keeps saying she's going to remove it because people are spending entirely too long in her guest bathroom.

Edit:
Grammar police.


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Last edited by cthia on Sun Jun 08, 2014 1:53 pm, edited 2 times in total.

Son, your mother says I have to hang you. Personally I don't think this is a capital offense. But if I don't hang you, she's gonna hang me and frankly, I'm not the one in trouble. —cthia's father. Incident in ? Axiom of Common Sense
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Re: Reginald Houseman
Post by kzt   » Sun Jun 08, 2014 11:50 am

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If you are not willing to understand how someone sees the world, what their guiding philosophy is and how they have traditionally acted and reacted then you'll continually find yourself surprised when they don't follow your script.

For example, crooks who come from a culture where "nobody talks" and where the culture's members take pride in harshly punishing those who violate this precept are a lot less likely to talk than game theory might suggest.
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Re: Reginald Houseman
Post by namelessfly   » Sun Jun 08, 2014 12:44 pm

namelessfly

Just because Houseman did not model his arguments on game theory one should not presume he is ignorant of game theory. His ignorance of the intensity of the religious hatred between Grayson and Masada is the problem. The fact that Manticore is such an intensely secular culture makes it extremely difficult for any Manticoran to understand the intensity of the religious animosity between Grayson and Masada and why those differences cannot be mediated. Honor Harrington did not understand the religious issues either. However; her knowledge of military history allowed her to understand that wars often occur even (usually) when war was irrational.

Of course the fact that the human genome is dominated by the Y chromosomes of men who won wars suggests that there are biological as well as economic imperatives that drive men to war.
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Re: Reginald Houseman
Post by Dieu_Le_Fera   » Sun Jun 08, 2014 1:26 pm

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I always wondered how Janacek tolerated him as second space lord during the Highridge Regime. For all of Janacek's faults, he still thought himself as an officer first, at least that was the perspective given to us. Where was his inherent hatred of "armchair generals"?
"Battle Cruisers lead the way!"
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Re: Reginald Houseman
Post by namelessfly   » Sun Jun 08, 2014 3:50 pm

namelessfly

Dieu_Le_Fera wrote:I always wondered how Janacek tolerated him as second space lord during the Highridge Regime. For all of Janacek's faults, he still thought himself as an officer first, at least that was the perspective given to us. Where was his inherent hatred of "armchair generals"?



"Battle Cruisers lead the way!"


Until they run into Battleships, then their screwed.
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Re: Reginald Houseman
Post by Donnachaidh   » Sun Jun 08, 2014 5:03 pm

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This is probably the most likely reason. Remember, Houseman grew up in a culture that consciously embraces religious toleration and has for over 500 years. There's also the cultural background of the original Manitcoran colonists, which also embraced religious toleration.

When someone doesn't look at history from a critical perspective and fails to understand the conflicts they will often assume everyone thinks like they do. This is especially true among those who live in isolated bubbles such as academia.

See Flag in Exile (I think) for a discussion where the religious background of most of the original Manticorian colonists is compared and contrasted with the religious background of most of the original Grayson colonists.

namelessfly wrote:Just because Houseman did not model his arguments on game theory one should not presume he is ignorant of game theory. His ignorance of the intensity of the religious hatred between Grayson and Masada is the problem. The fact that Manticore is such an intensely secular culture makes it extremely difficult for any Manticoran to understand the intensity of the religious animosity between Grayson and Masada and why those differences cannot be mediated. Honor Harrington did not understand the religious issues either. However; her knowledge of military history allowed her to understand that wars often occur even (usually) when war was irrational.
_____________________________________________________
"Sometimes I wonder if the world is run by smart people who are putting us on or by imbeciles who really mean it." - Mark Twain
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