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House of Lies/Honorverse Companion 2

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Re: House of Lies/Honorverse Companion 2
Post by lyonheart   » Sat Jun 14, 2014 9:10 pm

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Hi RunsForCelery,

Thanks very much for the quick response, RFC.

Of course, a reaction to an irritant like my previous post is to be expected. ;)

I'm sorry you're ticked but not surprised, and I'm still curious why the TSVW appendix etc couldn't have been integrated into the Bu9 project, since it seems so straight forward; why did it have to be disregarded?.

I was more than willing to help when HoS was first suggested, as were other fans here; while the RHN and IAN ring my chimes far less than the RMN mainly because there's much less to dig into, I hope contributions or the insights by posters here might be considered for HoS2.

L


runsforcelery wrote:**quote="lyonheart"**Hi Duckk,

Its always great to hear from you.

I understand the concern over the Great Resizing, and I took that as a given.

My problems stemmed mainly from the conflicts with the textev, especially the TSVW appendix, where the number of ships, their size, and total tonnage indicating class averages etc, were totally ignored for stuff seemingly made up on the spot.

Just check it and compare, please.

Why are the RMN Ad Astra DN's, which are only 3.57% bigger than the average peep BB and far lass than the last 4.5 NT BB's kept in service until 1913 when there is so much textev about BB's being too small for the wall etc, or the fact that the 1904 Fleet strength comparison chart states the RMN only had 121 DN's not the 144 of HoS?

There are tons of errors that are excruciating.

Hopefully HoS2 will be better, but I'm not holding my breath.

I've realized from the beginning that its too late to argue, but it grates so much when it should have been quite simple to factor the appendix and early textev in.

L


Duckk wrote:I assure you we went through many rounds of reviews to try and be as accurate as possible. While some things slipped through, I think you're putting far to big an onus on us for making things follow every jot and letter of early canon, especially since you know that quite a bit of it was written under faulty assumptions (such as the density problem which led to The Great Resizing).
**quote**


Lyonheart ---

When you are prepared to go through and spend as much time and effort as the Bu9 guys did on creating/recreating the "historical" navy by wading through 20 years worth of books and attempting to reconcile all the minor continuity errors which have crept in over the last 20 decades you may be in a position to cast aspersions on their efforts. At the moment, you are not.

The appendix from the SVW was, indeed, modified. If that offends you, I apologize. The effort that was expended in designing every single class of every navy for you and the other readers was prodigious. The effort to make sure that all named ships from the books were included and that hull numbers --- which I assigned without taking meticulous notes about how many ships were in each class or ship type --- was likewise prodigious. Most authors do not make a note every single time they name a ship or assign a hull number, especially not in a series stretching to 20-plus years and close to 20 mainstream novels plus short fiction. When the time comes to put a navy together for an official, canon listing, however, little things like repeat numbers or numbers which imply smaller classes --- or larger ones --- have to be reconciled. That is precisely what we attempted to do here.

Were there some typos that slipped by? Yes, there were. Was this Bu9's first effort at something this ambitious? Yes, it was. Did I have the opportunity to proofread every word of it and did I miss some of the errors, I certainly did.

I've done the best I could to maintain continuity over the life of the series and, by and large, I think I've done a fair job of it. When the time comes to put together the definitive guide to the entire literary universe, however, some pieces of it need to be filed and sanded to fit. Personally, I think they did a damned good job, and I don't know anyone who could have done a better one.
Any snippet or post from RFC is good if not great!
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Re: House of Lies/Honorverse Companion 2
Post by wastedfly   » Sat Jun 14, 2014 9:17 pm

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lyonheart wrote:1904 Fleet strength comparison chart states the RMN only had 121 DN's not the 144 of HoS?


Lyon:

1905 Fleet Strength: Total in service AT that time.
HoS: Total built. Not total in service or in reserve as of pre oyster bay...

You missed the rather BIG BOLD part in HoS in the ship classes. It lists the total BUILT. Not those in service.

RMN built more DN's after 1905 Fleet Strength Chart. Books even say they did as I recall. WoH I believe where Honor is describing how Janacek really gave her the short end of the stick via total wallers. #'s high, actual strength low. But she noted that the DN's she did have were the last built as I recall. I have not read WoH in a long time so I could be full of Baloney. :P In that case I hope you like baloney sandwiches. :roll: Or you could read HoS and it says they built more DN's after 1905 as well under Bellephon.
Last edited by wastedfly on Sun Jun 15, 2014 12:31 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: House of Lies/Honorverse Companion 2
Post by dreamrider   » Sat Jun 14, 2014 9:23 pm

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Direwolf18 wrote:The second half of HoS was pretty much purely technical and a bit historical. Which is fine for what it is.

I loved the King Roger part, and the only thing that diminished my enjoyment is I knew what was going to happen. If I know a character is going to die, from spoilers or able to tell from the authors writing style I make a point of not getting emotionally attached to the character. And yet... I really got attached to King Roger, and his death still struck a big chord with me.

Now the question of course with House of Lies, will it be about the Rise of the Peoples Republic? Or the fall of the Peoples Republic, in the days and weeks after Saint-Just developed a case of dead. I expect the first, I really hope for the second.

Someone (probably Rose) suggested Eloise Pritchart would have the line, "I will tear down this house of lies!".

Which would of course be amazing.


I hope that you know that the original intent, hope and purpose of the Companion series was that "purely technical and a bit historical" stuff. The proposal by David to add a short fiction piece by him, as a secondary part of the books, was only added to make the volumes a bit more marketable for Baen...after Baen had already agreed in principle to publish the Companion.

Of course, David being David, he ultimately wrote a piece that was edited down to only twice the page count originally allotted. Toni wouldn't / couldn't feasibly change the planned length of the book. So a bunch of the planned and anticipated Companion material had to be compressed and cut. Among other things, that's why there is no data on missiles, for instance.

Personally, I could do without the fiction pieces, in favor of deeper data.

But everything that is there, I accept as canon. Why? Because the author, as of ~this week, says it is the current canon, superceding any background essays of 18-20 years ago, when the HV and its complexities were relatively small. In fact, reconciling and correcting the current canon details was one of the principle reasons for doing a companion volume, I believe.

dreamrider
Last edited by dreamrider on Sat Jun 14, 2014 9:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: House of Lies/Honorverse Companion 2
Post by Direwolf18   » Sat Jun 14, 2014 9:50 pm

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I was NOT disparaging the technical data. Its very useful back story information to say the least. When House of Lies comes out I will happily go through every line of it.

But end of the day its technical data. I feel no need to reread that portion of the book, compared to the main line books that I will re read on a semi regular basis. (If I have read Shadow of Freedom probably 15 times+) I will sit down on a random evening with a beer in one hand and read the first half of House of Steel, I will usually call it a day when the story portion ends. I use the technical portions as just that, a technical reference to make sure I have the nuts and bolts stuff strait if one of my friends who I have reading the series has a question. I am definitely glad I have it, and glad I read it. It hammers home the depth and amount of thought RFC has put into the series like no other.
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Re: House of Lies/Honorverse Companion 2
Post by dreamrider   » Sat Jun 14, 2014 9:58 pm

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Interesting.

Just shows that there are different types of fans.

I have re-read all and portions of the Compainion chapters numerous times. Among other things, I keep it within reach when I am spending a lot of time on the forums (though I refer to other of the books as well.)

I have felt the need the re-read "I Will Build My House of Steel" exactly 0 times so far, though I imagine I will re-read it sometime.

dreamrider
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Re: House of Lies/Honorverse Companion 2
Post by cralkhi   » Sun Jun 15, 2014 12:54 am

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I would really like to see more in-depth information not just on the ships, but on the systems -- wedges, sidewalls, grasers, missiles/CMs/MDMs/laserheads, energy torpedoes, Keyhole, recon drones etc.

I'd also like to see (probably e-book only due to physical size) all 3 companion volumes published together with the technical essays from the anthologies ("The Universe of Honor Harrington", "An Introduction to Modern Starship Armor Design").
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Re: House of Lies/Honorverse Companion 2
Post by lyonheart   » Sun Jun 15, 2014 1:23 am

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Hi WastedFly,

I wish it were that simple.

But the textev from HoS states the first DN class wasn't retired until 1908, the last in 1913.

Secondly FIE states early that the RMN stopped building more DN's when the war started, ie those building when the war began were the last, since building all the SD's they could made far more sense, NTM they can now afford it.

The fact that HoS even has Roger III etc stating that BB's are obsolete, too small for the wall etc, just like the early textev begs the question of why DN's all of 3,985,500 tons were still in service when peep BB's of 4.5 M tons were also obviously too small for the wall etc.

I thought I'd stated this earlier, but I love the whole Honorverse that David has created so much that I don't want to see any of it diminished or dismissed, especially when I still haven't seen a good reason yet for the early textev details to be dropped in the first place.

Again the great resize isn't an issue in the appendix since ship dimensions weren't mentioned in it.

L


wastedfly wrote:
lyonheart wrote:1904 Fleet strength comparison chart states the RMN only had 121 DN's not the 144 of HoS?


Lyon:

1905 Fleet Strength: Total in service AT that time.
HoS: Total built. Not total in service or in reserve as of pre oyster bay...

You missed the rather BIG BOLD part in HoS in the ship classes. It lists the total BUILT. Not those in service.

RMN built more DN's after 1905 Fleet Strength Chart. Books even say they did as I recall. WoH I believe where Honor is describing how Janacek really gave her the short end of the stick via total wallers. #'s high, actual strength low. But she noted that the DN's she did have were the last built as I recall. I have not read WoH in a long time so I could be full of Baloney. :P In that case I hope you like baloney sandwiches. :roll:
Any snippet or post from RFC is good if not great!
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Re: House of Lies/Honorverse Companion 2
Post by wastedfly   » Sun Jun 15, 2014 1:29 am

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lyonheart wrote:Hi WastedFly,

I wish it were that simple.


Sigh

It is that simple.

1) Retirement, blah blah blah means absolutely NOTHING for this discussion as HoS only depicts the number built. Not the number in service.
2) HoS disagrees with your unquoted assertion. Since you did not take my VERY pointed clue to read a very specific passage:

Under DN, Bellerophon class:

"The class continued in construction at a slow rate for the first five years of the war, until the Navy's funding and infrastructure allowed it to begin building exclusively SD's..."

Next time someone tells you to read a specific passage as their basis of an argument, how about ya do so?
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Re: House of Lies/Honorverse Companion 2
Post by wastedfly   » Sun Jun 15, 2014 1:50 am

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lyonheart wrote:Hi WastedFly,

I wish it were that simple.

But the textev from HoS states the first DN class wasn't retired until 1908, the last in 1913.


Not that your statement has any validity to the build numbers, but Hos doesn't. How about you read it? Only one class of DN were retired during the year(s) of 1908-1913. NO class of DN were retired wholesale before 1913. What the BEEP are you Reading?

Ad-Astra 11 built, retired 1913
Royal Winton 21 built, retired 1916
Gladiator 34 built, retired 1920
Majestic 40 built, retired 1918
Bellerophon 38 built, 1921 is its retirement date.

Total Built: 144

The only time 1908 is used is for the FIRST Ad-Astra old as dirt "DN" being retired. Of which there were only 11 to begin with. How the Hell does this have ANY bearing on the "discrepancy" between the 1905 fleet strength chart of 121 DN and total of DN's built per HoS? So, they built another 23 DN's during the first few years of the war. HoS even says they did.

Please find your FIE quote. Anyways, HoS is the new canon.
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Re: House of Lies/Honorverse Companion 2
Post by lyonheart   » Sun Jun 15, 2014 2:12 am

lyonheart
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Hi Dreamrider,

Actually he said it back when HoS came out a year ago.

It's one reason I didn't argue then, but I'm still curious what was wrong with the appendix data.

To me, having charts would have made the inconsistencies too glaring when compared to the appendix.

As I've said King Roger's story was great, but the rest could have been so much better if they'd paid attention to the darn appendix.

L


dreamrider wrote:
Direwolf18 wrote:The second half of HoS was pretty much purely technical and a bit historical. Which is fine for what it is.

I loved the King Roger part, and the only thing that diminished my enjoyment is I knew what was going to happen. If I know a character is going to die, from spoilers or able to tell from the authors writing style I make a point of not getting emotionally attached to the character. And yet... I really got attached to King Roger, and his death still struck a big chord with me.

Now the question of course with House of Lies, will it be about the Rise of the Peoples Republic? Or the fall of the Peoples Republic, in the days and weeks after Saint-Just developed a case of dead. I expect the first, I really hope for the second.

Someone (probably Rose) suggested Eloise Pritchart would have the line, "I will tear down this house of lies!".

Which would of course be amazing.


I hope that you know that the original intent, hope and purpose of the Companion series was that "purely technical and a bit historical" stuff. The proposal by David to add a short fiction piece by him, as a secondary part of the books, was only added to make the volumes a bit more marketable for Baen...after Baen had already agreed in principle to publish the Companion.

Of course, David being David, he ultimately wrote a piece that was edited down to only twice the page count originally allotted. Toni wouldn't / couldn't feasibly change the planned length of the book. So a bunch of the planned and anticipated Companion material had to be compressed and cut. Among other things, that's why there is no data on missiles, for instance.

Personally, I could do without the fiction pieces, in favor of deeper data.

But everything that is there, I accept as canon. Why? Because the author, as of ~this week, says it is the current canon, superceding any background essays of 18-20 years ago, when the HV and its complexities were relatively small. In fact, reconciling and correcting the current canon details was one of the principle reasons for doing a companion volume, I believe.

dreamrider
Any snippet or post from RFC is good if not great!
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