LAC not so useful after all?

Hi Dreamrider,

Given 2000 LAC's firing 6-8 Mk-31 CM/Vipers per volley, some 12-16,000 could have been launched in each salvo, I'd expect the first 2 and last to be fire-and-forget Vipers; while it would take the 'TIY' DDM's some 41-47 seconds to cross the LAC's Mk-31 envelope, which as screen was at least 3.6-4 M km from the wall, or 7-8 volleys before being engaged by the wall directly besides the LAC's PDC's etc, for some 84-128,000 CM's of all types targeting the 68,000 SLN missiles before the wall started defending itself.

I can thus see why HA-H wasn't worried about any SLN missiles doing that much damage to the GA fleets.

L

dreamrider wrote:Many are missing the point of the books recent discussions of CM development here.

The CM-role LACs are essential, because with the long ranges of engagement, multi-drives, and consequent extremely high closing velocities, it is an absolute necessity to extend the CM engagement zone by 2-4 times feasible CM range.

If you tried to use large screening platforms for that, them you would probably just end up with "the screen elimination battle before the battle".

dreamrider

Lord Skimper wrote:In a pod layer to pod layer screened with LAC force losing 200-300 LAC in each Salvo is going to wipe out all CLAC LAC carried into battle in the first 3-4-5 Salvos.

If you paid attention, you'd notice that the mind-control nannies caused The Button to be pushed which launched all the pods Filareta had. His tube-launched missiles were far less effective.

Then again, those pods were fired without the necessary fire control for that first salvo, so it was already less effective. Because those missiles had to fall back on their autonomous target-evaluation systems, an awful lot of them targeted LACs that Tac officers would have assigned to wallers instead, grossly inflating the damage to the LACs.

They only got off one salvo of that size. The remainder of their missile load combined would not constitute the throw weight to make up a second salvo, much less a third, fourth, or fifth.

If someone brings five times the pods Filareta had, then they might well wipe out a thousand LACs. Small problem with that is they'd need five times the wallers Filareta had to drag them into range. And no navy in the Honorverse has that many wallers.

dreamrider wrote:The CM-role LACs are essential, because with the long ranges of engagement, multi-drives, and consequent extremely high closing velocities, it is an absolute necessity to extend the CM engagement zone by 2-4 times feasible CM range.

If you tried to use large screening platforms for that, them you would probably just end up with "the screen elimination battle before the battle".

Indeed, in the Pearls, DW has said that building a pure-defense capital ship is never going to happen because enemies will target them first. The same is not true of LACs because their small size makes them much harder to hit than traditional screening elements.

I still think that the next logical step is to replace the crew of a Katana and their life-support with the AI and FTL receiver hardware of an Apollo missile (obviously with different software), which should allow it to accept higher accel without a human crew. By analogy to the real-world weapon for which it's named, I dub this the notional Naginata, extending the reach of counter-missile and counter-recon-drone (assuming that a Viper is as good at taking out drones as it is LACs) beyond what LACs can handle.

The only reason I don't think this will happen in the books is because DW doesn't want to write "war porn". Having those GA personnel killed at 2nd Manticore helps prevent that.

lyonheart wrote:Hi Dreamrider,

Given 2000 LAC's firing 6-8 Mk-31 CM/Vipers per volley, some 12-16,000 could have been launched in each salvo, I'd expect the first 2 and last to be fire-and-forget Vipers; while it would take the 'TIY' DDM's some 41-47 seconds to cross the LAC's Mk-31 envelope, which as screen was at least 3.6-4 M km from the wall, or 7-8 volleys before being engaged by the wall directly besides the LAC's PDC's etc, for some 84-128,000 CM's of all types targeting the 68,000 SLN missiles before the wall started defending itself.

On the other hand, 2100 RHN guided MDM missiles with real modern ECM at Solon, did not get through at all verses 7000CM's.

3.33:1

0 damage was done. Multiple times in a row.

NIT: Katana's have only 5 CM tubes.

Incoming were roughly 68,000 SLN missiles traveling at 0.4c as I recall. Was it lower? I forget.

200 SDP/CLAC with roughly 120-150CM tubes + 2000 LAC each with 5 CM tubes. I averaged the CLAC CM's and the SDP CM's. If max fire rate of 8s/Salvo and all using 3.75Mkm range CM's with flight time of 75s, should allow them 8-9 salvos.

Now lets be fair. Only 40ish SDP/CLAC could actually launch that many salvos along with the LAC's. The other 150 SDP/CLAC were 2M km away. This would only allow them 3 salvos.

8*40*(120->150) +10,000*8 + 3*150*(120->150)
38,400->48,000 + 80,000 + 54,000->67,000

172,400 CM -> 195,500 CM

Against 68,000 slow, unguided, obsolete ECM, missiles.

Ratio 2.53:1 -> 2.87:1

So, against vastly superior missiles, the Manties at Solon did not receive a scratch. At BoMa2, with nearly the exact ratio of defensive missiles, against vastly inferior competition, 200 LAC's died along with some actual damage to Honor's ships.

Ah, the power of plot.

Guys, do not look too deep into missile engagements. They are RFC's personal plot twist ploy toolbox.

Hi WastedFly,

What's your textev for the number of Katana CM tubes, since the Shrike B has 8 without going into its 4 much larger attack missiles? [from AoV]

The max BF salvo was 64,000 according to Filaretta on one page yet it's implied 68,000 on another a few pages later.

The initial salvo's at Solon were far smaller than 11th Fleet's 51,240 sudden storm, so they were far easier to avoid.

Given at least a couple kilometers per missile for its wedge, the missile storm was at least ~256 km in diameter, though I'd want a wider spread to avoid potential fratricide even if the range was only ~12 million km, more like 5-10 km if not more.

L

wastedfly wrote:

lyonheart wrote:Hi Dreamrider,

Given 2000 LAC's firing 6-8 Mk-31 CM/Vipers per volley, some 12-16,000 could have been launched in each salvo, I'd expect the first 2 and last to be fire-and-forget Vipers; while it would take the 'TIY' DDM's some 41-47 seconds to cross the LAC's Mk-31 envelope, which as screen was at least 3.6-4 M km from the wall, or 7-8 volleys before being engaged by the wall directly besides the LAC's PDC's etc, for some 84-128,000 CM's of all types targeting the 68,000 SLN missiles before the wall started defending itself.

On the other hand, 2100 RHN guided MDM missiles with real modern ECM at Solon, did not get through at all verses 7000CM's.

3.33:1

0 damage was done. Multiple times in a row.

NIT: Katana's have only 5 CM tubes.

Incoming were roughly 68,000 SLN missiles traveling at 0.4c as I recall. Was it lower? I forget.

200 SDP/CLAC with roughly 120-150CM tubes + 2000 LAC each with 5 CM tubes. I averaged the CLAC CM's and the SDP CM's. If max fire rate of 8s/Salvo and all using 3.75Mkm range CM's with flight time of 75s, should allow them 8-9 salvos.

Now lets be fair. Only 40ish SDP/CLAC could actually launch that many salvos along with the LAC's. The other 150 SDP/CLAC were 2M km away. This would only allow them 3 salvos.

8*40*(120->150) +10,000*8 + 3*150*(120->150)
38,400->48,000 + 80,000 + 54,000->67,000

172,400 CM -> 195,500 CM

Against 68,000 slow, unguided, obsolete ECM, missiles.

Ratio 2.53:1 -> 2.87:1

So, against vastly superior missiles, the Manties at Solon did not receive a scratch. At BoMa2, with nearly the exact ratio of defensive missiles, against vastly inferior competition, 200 LAC's died along with some actual damage to Honor's ships.

Ah, the power of plot.

Guys, do not look too deep into missile engagements. They are RFC's personal plot twist ploy toolbox.

One wonders if an SD might not be useful as a defensive weapon platform.

An SD can sit in the wall of battle, it has the wedge and sidewalls to be there with the SD(P). If one were to then use its CM and PD to help thicken the local defenses and redesign a missile using ERM tech to be fired from the tubes as they are only use practice rounds or CML rounds. CM with 15 million km range. Out where the LAC would otherwise be.

One would have to have a ship like a CLAC to carry extra Defensive Keyhole 1 around or use Frigate based Keyhole systems. Then the Gryphon wouldn't even need be modified, initially.

Each Gryphon carries 76 CM and similar numbers of PD. Plus 92 ERM CML with 4 times the range of standard CM. ERM missiles can be fired into an adjacent aspect, top or bottom, all can be fired at an enemy without peeking around the wedge. The Keyhole systems / frigates then take over and start shooting down the incoming missiles, way out without needing to be way out like the vulnerable LAC.

Although I still don't understand why a missile can't turn when they are launched but can turn when on final attack. They are not cannons they are missiles.

Each Gryphon can absorb multiple hits unlike the unarmoured LAC. Mounts 10 times as many CM and much heavier PD, and 20+ times as many even heavier again missiles, which can with dud rounds be really good CM.

There are at least 200 such ships just sitting there. Equal to 2000-6000 LAC. There are plenty of alliance crew members in Haven. Plus another 85 SD in Grayson space, couple hundred+ in Haven space, 35-40 in Beowulf space. And 200 ex sollie SD floating around the Manty system. Lots of crew members to man all of them and a need. They may not be great at attacking other ships but they could be great at knocking out missiles.

Plus the enemy willn't know who is the pod layer and who isn't. Having a Keyhole CLAC could come in handy anyway, and if you are going to limit the LAC the CLAC will have a new task.

Plus adding 50 SD(CM) which can tow a dozen plus pods will make 50 SD(P) and 5 CLAC-K with 20 BCL which can also a dozen plus pods each too. Into a very capable fighting force. Even more so with a donkey system.

SEM and Grayson alone could field 5 such fleets, instantly.

The rest of the CLAC and LAC can be used with the lighter units where they will multiply the effectiveness even more.

Manticore Grayson could set 5

Lord Skimper wrote: CM with 15 million km range. Out where the LAC would otherwise be.

At All Costs wrote:The Mark 31 counter-missiles Honor's ships were firing represented significant improvements even over the Mark 30 counter-missiles her command had used as recently as the Battle of Sidemore, only months before. Their insanely powerful wedges were capable of sustaining accelerations of up to 130,000 gravities for as much as seventy-five seconds, which gave them a powered range from rest of almost 3.6 million kilometers.
Kill numbers at such extreme ranges were problematical, to say the least
[snip]
And as a final refinement, the grav-pulse com-equipped reconnaissance arrays deployed in a shell three and a half million kilometers out watched the incoming missiles' EW with eagle eyes, and their FTL data streams provided the missile defense crews aboard Honor's ships a priceless nine-second advantage. Although the missile controllers and their AIs were still limited to light-speed telemetry links, they were able to refine and update targeting solutions with much greater speed and precision than had ever been possible before.

Hmm, if you can barely get CM hits at 3.6 Mkm, while "cheating" with FTL drone data, what makes you think you'll get hits at 4 times that range?

(At least without some sensor or fire-control breakthrough)

Let me get this straight, Skimper--you are suggesting that extended-range missiles from Gryphon- and Sphinx-class ships be used as counter-missiles. Is that correct?

Lord Skimper wrote:Although I still don't understand why a missile can't turn when they are launched but can turn when on final attack. They are not cannons they are missiles.

What makes you think they can't turn when launched? Of course they can--the text explicitly states that they can turn 180 degrees, so you can even fire a broadside from the side facing away from the enemy.

There are at least 200 such ships just sitting there.

Actually, they aren't just sitting there. Most of them are in active service already.

It sounds like the only reason you are suggesting this is to provide longer ranges for counter-missile action. Unfortunately, the text has noted that Manticoran counter-missiles are already coming up against the problem of communication lag time. Your solution does not fix this. Another problem is that missiles are not as agile as counter-missiles. It will be harder to hit the enemy missiles.

This simply is not as effective as a forward-posted LAC screen. It could be done, and it would be somewhat effective, but there are better uses to be made of the old superdreadnoughts (such as the uses to which they are already being put).

TheMonster wrote:

dreamrider wrote:The CM-role LACs are essential, because with the long ranges of engagement, multi-drives, and consequent extremely high closing velocities, it is an absolute necessity to extend the CM engagement zone by 2-4 times feasible CM range.

If you tried to use large screening platforms for that, them you would probably just end up with "the screen elimination battle before the battle".

Indeed, in the Pearls, DW has said that building a pure-defense capital ship is never going to happen because enemies will target them first. The same is not true of LACs because their small size makes them much harder to hit than traditional screening elements.

I still think that the next logical step is to replace the crew of a Katana and their life-support with the AI and FTL receiver hardware of an Apollo missile (obviously with different software), which should allow it to accept higher accel without a human crew. By analogy to the real-world weapon for which it's named, I dub this the notional Naginata, extending the reach of counter-missile and counter-recon-drone (assuming that a Viper is as good at taking out drones as it is LACs) beyond what LACs can handle.

The only reason I don't think this will happen in the books is because DW doesn't want to write "war porn". Having those GA personnel killed at 2nd Manticore helps prevent that.

And as DW has stated before, there are too much advantage with having a live crew to just toss them out.

I rather doubt that LACs will have much use for increased acceleration.

But i wouldn´t be surprised if we get to see a "HAC"/~heavy attack craft(or LAC(L) as DW seems fond of categorising them), something only "slightly" larger(5kt extra?), but similar crew size and base equipment, but a larger CM load(same # launchers).
Possibly using a new "multimission" missile not restrained by the size of the original CM, still mainly a CM, but with better 2ndary ability to perform other mimssile roles.

With the overall sizecreep that´s been going on, a next generation CLAC(L) might still carry the same number of LAC(L).

lyonheart wrote:Hi WastedFly,

What's your textev for the number of Katana CM tubes, since the Shrike B has 8 without going into its 4 much larger attack missiles? [from AoV]

House of Steel.

The stated 5 CM tubes is not in any other book or pearl that I am aware of.