Honorverse Euphemisms

cthia wrote:
Euphemism; an innocuous word used in place of one found offensive. How is sex slave not offensive? If there was a euphemism, it would be involuntary companion or something like that. A euphemism for Battle Fleet would be Defence Force.

In fact, Beowulf Self Defense Force is a euphemism due to the fact that they can use those SDs of theirs for attacking.

The problem with the use of euphemisms is that it requires one to make assumptions about one's audience.

The same with accepting what you may feel is politically correct.

The most famous example that comes to mind is not so very long ago when our very own government couldn't decide whether to use Negro or Black on forms.

It is still a sticky matter with some and it varies from person to person.

Euphemisms and by relation PC bears an element of uncertainty, as it requires the same assumptions referred to above.

What would be offensive in a home full of retired Marines as opposed to a home full of Christains or the Queen of England herself?

Even what we may feel is a euphemism could in fact be offensive.

Another danger of euphemisms and being politically correct came up in class, and your example will serve perfectly.

Firstly, let's agree that sex slave very well could be offensive to many people.

IMHO, if a woman had to wear a T-shirt all day long with either sex slave or (prostitute, slut), which do you feel she'd choose?

Often a side effect of euphemisms are the lost of the intended meaning of the user. At what point could it be considered too watered down to ensure proper (npi) understanding.


Your example of involuntary companion could lose lots of inherent meaning for many people, especially if one intended to specify that said woman was an involuntary prostitute, rather an involuntary date.

I'll acknowledge that sex slave could be considered an on the cusp term.

In today's generation, I can see a teenager buying a T-shirt and proudly wearing it in public that says sex slave.

In fact I can imagine someone getting a sex slave tattoo.

Prostitute, or slut...not so much. You?

This is a tough one, given the definition above.

The only one I can think off In-Honorverse is the joke about "Space Hamsters" powering the Engine Room (mostly Sollie but IIRC also used about early Haven ships).

As for the MWW, he often uses (usually at least once per book)

..such as it was, and what there was of it..

rather than saying anything specific--not sure if that counts as a euphemism or not, but the closest I can think of.

IMHO as always. YMMV.

OK. Just so we can go farther in this discussion, what exactly is your definition of euphemism? I flat out do not see how "steward" can be a euphemism. It is a job title and description.

cthia wrote:

cthia wrote:
Euphemism; an innocuous word used in place of one found offensive. How is sex slave not offensive? If there was a euphemism, it would be involuntary companion or something like that. A euphemism for Battle Fleet would be Defence Force.

In fact, Beowulf Self Defense Force is a euphemism due to the fact that they can use those SDs of theirs for attacking.

The problem with the use of euphemisms is that it requires one to make assumptions about one's audience.

The same with accepting what you may feel is politically correct.

The most famous example that comes to mind is not so very long ago when our very own government couldn't decide whether to use Negro or Black on forms.

It is still a sticky matter with some and it varies from person to person.

Euphemisms and by relation PC bears an element of uncertainty, as it requires the same assumptions referred to above.

What would be offensive in a home full of retired Marines as opposed to a home full of Christains or the Queen of England herself?

Even what we may feel is a euphemism could in fact be offensive.

Another danger of euphemisms and being politically correct came up in class, and your example will serve perfectly.

Firstly, let's agree that sex slave very well could be offensive to many people.

IMHO, if a woman had to wear a T-shirt all day long with either sex slave or (prostitute, slut), which do you feel she'd choose?

Often a side effect of euphemisms are the lost of the intended meaning of the user. At what point could it be considered too watered down to ensure proper (npi) understanding.


Your example of involuntary companion could lose lots of inherent meaning for many people, especially if one intended to specify that said woman was an involuntary prostitute, rather an involuntary date.

I'll acknowledge that sex slave could be considered an on the cusp term.

In today's generation, I can see a teenager buying a T-shirt and proudly wearing it in public that says sex slave.

In fact I can imagine someone getting a sex slave tattoo.

Prostitute, or slut...not so much. You?

crewdude48 wrote:OK. Just so we can go farther in this discussion, what exactly is your definition of euphemism? I flat out do not see how "steward" can be a euphemism. It is a job title and description.

First, you must promise not to tell Honor!

Because Honor herself said something regarding that Mac is much more than just a cook.

Again, it's a very subjective concept.

cthia wrote:

crewdude48 wrote:OK. Just so we can go farther in this discussion, what exactly is your definition of euphemism? I flat out do not see how "steward" can be a euphemism. It is a job title and description.

First, you must promise not to tell Honor!

Because Honor herself said something regarding that Mac is much more than just a cook.

Again, it's a very subjective concept.

I would say that since Mac's job is more than just a cook, that Steward could be construed as a euphemism for Servant, which implies a lower-class person, who may or may not have volunteered for that job.

More or less, a servant is exactly what Mac is, but because he's called a Steward, it has a more acceptable/respectable connotation. Sure, we all know that Mac is more of a friend than even the word "steward" can account for, but in the end, a servant is what he is.

Edit: In many ways, Honor's and Mac's relationship is exactly that of Frodo and Sam, and even they acknowledge their "master" and "servant" relationship. I like to think that if J.R.R. Tolkien had been writing LotR today, he would have sniffed at all the PC folderol and still said that Sam was Frodo's servant. Of course, he probably would have been castigated for it, and maybe the editors at Unwin would have insisted he change it to "steward".

Personally, I have little use for political correctness, as IMO, it means nothing in the long run. What is politically correct for one person may be insulting to another. Sure, there are some things that you don't say in polite company - or even in impolite company, occasionally - but for the most part, people are a product of their times, and trying to change them, or the way they say things, is futile.

For example, I despise how people want to change certain parts of Huck Finn, simply because certain words are unfashionable now. Same goes for those who want to change LotR because the word "faggot" is used in it. Sorry, but in that context, it's referring to a bundle of wood for a fire. Then there's the Brit food that goes by the same name, or the shortened version used in England to refer to a cigarette.

That's why I tend to just roll my eyes when people get all in a huff about it. Oh, wait... is "huff" or "huffing" a politically incorrect word?

Maxx wrote:
I would say that since Mac's job is more than just a cook, that Steward could be construed as a euphemism for Servant, which implies a lower-class person, who may or may not have volunteered for that job.

More or less, a servant is exactly what Mac is, but because he's called a Steward, it has a more acceptable/respectable connotation. Sure, we all know that Mac is more of a friend than even the word "steward" can account for, but in the end, a servant is what he is.

Edit: In many ways, Honor's and Mac's relationship is exactly that of Frodo and Sam, and even they acknowledge their "master" and "servant" relationship. I like to think that if J.R.R. Tolkien had been writing LotR today, he would have sniffed at all the PC folderol and still said that Sam was Frodo's servant. Of course, he probably would have been castigated for it, and maybe the editors at Unwin would have insisted he change it to "steward".

Personally, I have little use for political correctness, as IMO, it means nothing in the long run. What is politically correct for one person may be insulting to another. Sure, there are some things that you don't say in polite company - or even in impolite company, occasionally - but for the most part, people are a product of their times, and trying to change them, or the way they say things, is futile.

For example, I despise how people want to change certain parts of Huck Finn, simply because certain words are unfashionable now. Same goes for those who want to change LotR because the word "faggot" is used in it. Sorry, but in that context, it's referring to a bundle of wood for a fire. Then there's the Brit food that goes by the same name, or the shortened version used in England to refer to a cigarette.

That's why I tend to just roll my eyes when people get all in a huff about it. Oh, wait... is "huff" or "huffing" a politically incorrect word?

Outstanding!

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And again, the danger of euphemisms.
Lost meaning.
Inherent assumptions.

Even in our very own Forum Rules is an allowance for the weakness of euphemisms.

In other words, cursing is allowed if you think it is appropriate; gratuitous/excessive cursing is not.

Somehow, saying...

The excrement hit the fan!

loses something in it's euphemization.
It becomes more of a euthanization.

cthia wrote:
Somehow, saying...

The excrement hit the fan!

loses something in it's euphemization.
It becomes more of a euthanization.

I disagree. In this case, I think it actually gains something *because* it's a euphemism. These sorts of euphemisms are rare, but there are a few of them out there. The very dry humor inherent in that particular one, though, is what makes it work.

Of course, I prefer the longer version - "The excrement is about to strike the rotary air impeller."

Either way, it's a good way to get the point across. BTW, have you seen the Mythbusters episode where they did that?

MaxxQ wrote:
I disagree. In this case, I think it actually gains something *because* it's a euphemism. These sorts of euphemisms are rare, but there are a few of them out there. The very dry humor inherent in that particular one, though, is what makes it work.

Of course, I prefer the longer version - "The excrement is about to strike the rotary air impeller."

Either way, it's a good way to get the point across. BTW, have you seen the Mythbusters episode where they did that?

I see your point.
Good point!

In this case you must know your audience.

I like the long version as well.
Excellent!

MaxxQ wrote:
I disagree. In this case, I think it actually gains something *because* it's a euphemism. These sorts of euphemisms are rare, but there are a few of them out there. The very dry humor inherent in that particular one, though, is what makes it work.

Of course, I prefer the longer version - "The excrement is about to strike the rotary air impeller."

Either way, it's a good way to get the point across. BTW, have you seen the Mythbusters episode where they did that?

Maxx, I forgot to ask about that Mythbusters' episode. No I didn't see it. Would you care to elaborate? Perhaps I can find it online.

cthia wrote:

MaxxQ wrote:
I disagree. In this case, I think it actually gains something *because* it's a euphemism. These sorts of euphemisms are rare, but there are a few of them out there. The very dry humor inherent in that particular one, though, is what makes it work.

Of course, I prefer the longer version - "The excrement is about to strike the rotary air impeller."

Either way, it's a good way to get the point across. BTW, have you seen the Mythbusters episode where they did that?

Maxx, I forgot to ask about that Mythbusters' episode. No I didn't see it. Would you care to elaborate? Perhaps I can find it online.

Basically, they were just trying to see what would actually happen when the poo hits the fan.

I couldn't find the full episode, but starting at 2:10 there's a couple of scenes from it in this video: http://youtu.be/9zoQb9n0akM