First Technical Mission To Bolthole

Theemile wrote:Yeah, the most important part of the Graser torp isn't the graser's power, it is only a CL graser after all; it is the duration of the beam - some 100-1000x longer than usual. You are not going to get through SD Sidewalls with that

A CL graser is still way more powerful than a burst from a missile, even a latest-gen Mark 23.

Theemile wrote:You are not going to get through SD Sidewalls with that,

Actually, IIRC, yes you can. You just have to get very close.

The Leonard Detweiler Class are superdreadnaught size warships and the MA were planning to build a large number of these ships. I don't understand why the Alignment would build ships that would effectively be of no use once the GA are able to detect them, considering their tactical shortcomings...acceleration, lack of sidewalls.

The very notion of calling it a superdreadnaught escapes me. As I understand it, ship to ship battles are not what they are designed for?

My point is this. It seems the GA royally screwed the pooch.
Why didn't they just wait until all their ships were built before they even tipped their hand? Then they could have held Haven, Grayson, Manticore, and The League hostage after a few planetary strikes.

Obviously they are aware of their own technologies' limitations. One thing they aren't, is stupid. So what am I missing?


The MA is very much aware of Manticore's technical prowess. They watched the war between Haven and Manticore raging from the beginning, and they took great joy in watching the juggernaut that is the SLN step into that sausage grinder. Surely they aren't planning to do the same?

Once the ships are built, what could they possibly do, if The GA can easily detect them with successes coming out of Bolthole?

I just cannot see the MA allowing themselves to become grounded in a position to be just as impotent as the SLN, after so much planning and resources spent.

cthia wrote:My point is this. It seems the MA [ed.] royally screwed the pooch.
Why didn't they just wait until all their ships were built before they even tipped their hand? Then they could have held Haven, Grayson, Manticore, and The League hostage after a few planetary strikes.

Obviously they are aware of their own technologies' limitations. One thing they aren't, is stupid. So what am I missing?

Mostly because they couldn't have. If they leave things alone for a few more years so Manticore doesn't just have the python lump of Apollo wallers but a follow-up wave after that, has years to build up stock of Apollo missiles and push them out to bases and supply depots across Manticoran space (and the Andies and Graysons get native Apollo missile lines set up), the TQ worlds start solving the RMN's manpower problem... and then destroying Manticore's industrial capacity (or even wiping out the Star Empire's systems with EE violations) leaves a very pissed off RMN (and allies) that is capable of defeating every interstellar force in all of human space combined (excepting those allied with it and Haven). And Haven that would be able to do the same thing if not for Manticore and their allies.

cthia wrote:The Leonard Detweiler Class are superdreadnaught size warships and the MA were planning to build a large number of these ships. I don't understand why the Alignment would build ships that would effectively be of no use once the GA are able to detect them, considering their tactical shortcomings...acceleration, lack of sidewalls.

The very notion of calling it a superdreadnaught escapes me. As I understand it, ship to ship battles are not what they are designed for?

Actually, we don't know how big the Leonard Detweiler class is. There are no clues in the books, except that they are big enough to launch graser torps from internal magazines. Remember that they have no upper size limit imposed by inertial compensators. And there is no reason they couldn't have bubble sidewalls, perhaps even buckler sidewalls if they've figured out how to do them. As for being of no use once the GA was able to detect them, David once said that the Mesan Alignment would be stupid to build a large ship if it couldn't stand up to the wall of battle. Most of us don't think David is setting the Alignment up as stupid, so we surmise there are tum-te-tums coming up with the Detweilers.

My point is this. It seems the GA royally screwed the pooch.
Why didn't they just wait until all their ships were built before they even tipped their hand? Then they could have held Haven, Grayson, Manticore, and The League hostage after a few planetary strikes.

Obviously they are aware of their own technologies' limitations. One thing they aren't, is stupid. So what am I missing?

One thing you are missing is that the Alignment did not expect Haven to ally with Manticore. They expected Haven to take advantage of the Yawata Strike and hit Manticore hard. The Alignment had planned all along for some star nation to be the hammer that shattered the weakened Solarian League. That hammer had to be strong enough to actually damage the League and cause the rotten system to break apart, but not powerful enough to threaten Mesan plans after battling the League. Eventually, they chose Haven to be that hammer. They did not predict Manticore's rise to power and the technological revolution they produced. Manticore became a potential hammer against the League, but Manticore was rapidly becoming too powerful. When Manticore suddenly revealed Apollo, it was too much. Manticore had become powerful enough to threaten their plans. They had to do something to cut Manticore down. The plan was that the Yawata Strike would weaken Manticore enough that Haven could attack. One of the two would win the war, but the victor would be greatly weakened. The victor would still serve as a hammer against the League, but would not be a threat to the Alignment.

Cachat and Zilwicki threw their plan in the shredder. Now both Haven and Manticore know about the Alignment, and are allied together instead of bleeding each other to death. That wasn't supposed to happen.

The MA is very much aware of Manticore's technical prowess. They watched the war between Haven and Manticore raging from the beginning, and they took great joy in watching the juggernaut that is the SLN step into that sausage grinder. Surely they aren't planning to do the same?

Once the ships are built, what could they possibly do, if The GA can easily detect them with successes coming out of Bolthole?

I just cannot see the MA allowing themselves to become grounded in a position to be just as impotent as the SLN, after so much planning and resources spent.

Had things gone according to plan, Manticore's technical prowess would be in tatters. And they would not know who had launched the Yawata Strike. In the aftermath of the expected bloody war with Haven, and then the Solarian League, the mystery would have smoldered but not ignited.

Correct me if I'm wrong (not a rare thing, mind you), but didn't the original Oyster Bay plan have Haven as a target as well?

MaxxQ wrote:Correct me if I'm wrong (not a rare thing, mind you), but didn't the original Oyster Bay plan have Haven as a target as well?

Yes it did, but the Alignment didn't have the ships to attack Haven and haven't been able to locate Bolthole so would have missed the most valuable single target if they had attacked.

MaxxQ wrote:Correct me if I'm wrong (not a rare thing, mind you), but didn't the original Oyster Bay plan have Haven as a target as well?

Yes.

If you back up even further, the real original plan was for Haven to take out Manticore and then fall apart from its economic inefficiencies, possibly with a little more help from the MAlign, leaving the original plan for the destruction of the SL to amble along at its own pace.

Oyster Bay was a contingency when it turned out that even if Haven won the war with Manticore it wasn't going to fall apart on its own. Then Detweiller moved up a limited Oyster Bay to just take out Manticore.

We don't know if the MAlign knows where Bolthole is. It's never been said one way or the other.

It was explicitly stated that they did not. They may have learned since.

Think U.S.S. Enterprise. Next Generation...
The emergency separation of the saucer section from battle bridge.

Is it possible to radically redesign a superdreadnaught that will separate into two ships, both with CIC sections of their own? Each warship has redundant systems anyway.

A superdreadnaught separated in half would yield the tonnage of Manticore's big assed BBs.

The tactical benefit being faster ships while separated, and the surprise of being wolves in sheep's clothing.

In the spirit of 'those weren't BBs, they were minelayers.'
'Those weren't four BBs, they were two SDs!'

Hey, let's use Bolthole while we've got it.