Preston of the Space Ways

Jonathan_S wrote:My assumption is that a non-hyper capable yacht would be much cheaper. Both to purchase and to operate.

Probably like the difference between buying a Ferrari, a sea yacht, and your own private jet. A Ferrari is expensive to buy at first, but keeping it is relatively cheap: you need some garage space, insurance premiums, and some dedicated mechanic who knows what to do with your car.

A yacht needs marina space, which you have to keep paying for (unless you happen to own a sea-front house with a deep enough marina) and the upkeep of your yacht costs a lot of money. Fuel is expensive to keep running it and you must run the engine now and again. You must also run the air conditioning several times a month to ensure no mould grows there. You need to pay the crew. That's going to run you the cost of a Ferrari or two a month, just to keep it around.

A private jet may actually be cheaper to keep without using than a superyacht, but operating it is very expensive. Between airport fees, fuel (which you're spending a lot on because you're not flying around at the most economical cruising speed!), crew and other fees, each trip you take is going to be the cost of a couple of months of the superyacht's maintenance. And unlike the yacht, you don't usually live aboard the jet, so you'll probably also be paying for your mansion in Tuscany or Aspen.

So a fair number of people who could afford an intrasystem yacht couldn't afford a hyper-capable one. And some folks might not care about visiting other systems enough to want to spend the extra money even if they had it. Certainly from a system like Manticore if you want to leave the system there'd be no shortage of passenger berths you could take -- why buy the private jet if all you need is the occasional airline ticket?

Even if a first class ticket. Or, even, charter a luxury jet. It's very expensive to charter one, on the range of $100k/hour I think, but $1M isn't going to be even the downpayment on the private jet!

BTW, one of the ways Phil Knight from Nike pays for the upkeep of his jet (tail number N1KE) is that he "lets" the company use it, so the company pays for most of it. https://www.planespotters.net/photos/reg/N1KE

Jonathan_S wrote:

penny wrote:I'm confused. If you've got the money, why buy a non hyper capable yacht? If for some truly cataclysmic reason one might have to flee the entire system (like the Plague Years) anything less than hyper capable is a waste of ones money. And it isn't practical to buy one for ones younger son or daughter as they also require a crew. I suppose for business purposes, a yacht would be like a fancy chartered bus which only makes runs to New York, Philly and DC. Worth the money, I suppose, then.

My assumption is that a non-hyper capable yacht would be much cheaper. Both to purchase and to operate.

So a fair number of people who could afford an intrasystem yacht couldn't afford a hyper-capable one. And some folks might not care about visiting other systems enough to want to spend the extra money even if they had it. Certainly from a system like Manticore if you want to leave the system there'd be no shortage of passenger berths you could take -- why buy the private jet if all you need is the occasional airline ticket?

And of course then there are folks like Honor who has both a hyper-capable yacht with a crew to fly her around and an in-system runabout from the Star Kingdom's premiere yacht makers just because the in-system craft is small enough that she can directly pilot it and it's a lot more fun to fly than the big yacht. (You wouldn't want to drive cross country on a sport bike; but it'll blow the doors off a Ferrari and so might be a lot of fun for shorter trips)

However, everyone on the list of people who owned a yacht that you produced were not only filthy rich, but had cause to leave the system occasionally. Dunno about the last person on your list, Lisa Katherine O'Daly. And with the possible exception of the Youngs, as far as a need to leave the systems but certainly Pavel’s father could afford a hyper capable yacht.

But I am surprised that you posed the question of why someone like a Hauptman, or an Honor Harrington, or a Cathy Montaigne would own a hyper capable yacht in lieu of buying an occasional airline ticket. Exclusivity! Security! Privacy! People like that can ill afford to rub elbows with the hobnobs; and have some ungilded idiot of lower class take out all of his pent up frustrations out on you. Or have some uncouth idiot accost your daughter. But to be as powerful as Oz as a Hauptman and put your life and that of your family members at risk to save a few dollars is ludicrous.

It's hard to assassinate you if you're aboard your own yacht. Heck, one day Honor will need to travel to other systems, like Grayson, without the protection of a mixture of several navies.

Jonathan_S wrote:My assumption is that a non-hyper capable yacht would be much cheaper. Both to purchase and to operate

Why would that be true? The initial purchase of a hyper capable unit would be much higher, but it might level out in the long run, if there are lots of runs across the galaxy. And why wouldn't a Hauptman lend his vessel to his loved ones and relatives. Who also wouldn't want to be caught dead on a 'pfft' airliner. Can you imagine Taylor Swift flying on public transportation? Even if it is first class? There is a need, and a notion of, security through exclusivity.

A person as powerful as a Hauptman or a Harrington or a Montaigne, doesn't give the seedier element in life a clear opportunity to assassinate them. Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely, yes; but power also engenders danger. Absolute power engenders danger absolutely. IOW, the more powerful you are, the more the need to invest in bodyguards and segregate yourself from the public. Enemies (political in nature or not) cost you your freedom.

But I truly question whether it would be cheaper to operate. If you are only going to need “overdrive” on a few occasions compared to everyday use, why would it be costly? Remember, as long as you are not operating continuously, you are not wearing down any nodes. You're not normally firing up your hyper generator or your sails. MTBF depends on operating time. Not time lying dormant.

@ Penny. A simple answer is Bill Clinton's.
In my case I retired at 58, "Because I could."
I could have worked on in a position I was highly respected in, but had no need to.
If you are really rich, you tend to buy a Bentley, not a Kia.

penny wrote:

Jonathan_S wrote:My assumption is that a non-hyper capable yacht would be much cheaper. Both to purchase and to operate

Why would that be true? The initial purchase of a hyper capable unit would be much higher, but it might level out in the long run, if there are lots of runs across the galaxy. And why wouldn't a Hauptman lend his vessel to his loved ones and relatives. Who also wouldn't want to be caught dead on a 'pfft' airliner. Can you imagine Taylor Swift flying on public transportation? Even if it is first class? There is a need, and a notion of, security through exclusivity.

For one thing a hyper capable yacht is almost certainly bigger, and requires a larger crew which adds to the cost. (Extra engineers and a qualified astrogators; for two)

But it also has systems that require repair maintenance and replacement which a in-system yacht wouldn't have -- alpha nodes and a hypergenerator are large, require frequent maintenance, and at least the alpha nodes wear out and require replacements.

So I'd assume the extra size, extra crew, and extra maintenance would drive up the running costs significantly.

Daryl wrote:@ Penny. A simple answer is Bill Clinton's.
In my case I retired at 58, "Because I could."
I could have worked on in a position I was highly respected in, but had no need to.
If you are really rich, you tend to buy a Bentley, not a Kia.

I think it depends quite frequently on the age. If you are rich and old then perhaps a Bentley. If you are rich, married and old then yes, a Bentley. If you are young and rich, then I think a Ferrari. Youth don't want a Bentley. Where's the fun in a stodgy ole Bentley? Age is a long way off with prolong. A midlife crisis would definitely fetch a Ferrari.

A dispatch boat is a Ferrari. Seating only for two. And available for long distance runs where it was meant to be driven. No need for a crew or an engineer. Although, I do wonder about running out of gas or breaking down in the HV.

Anyway, just to be sure. Are you referring to a Dispatch Boat as a Kia?

ThinksMarkedly wrote:

Jonathan_S wrote:My assumption is that a non-hyper capable yacht would be much cheaper. Both to purchase and to operate.

Probably like the difference between buying a Ferrari, a sea yacht, and your own private jet. A Ferrari is expensive to buy at first, but keeping it is relatively cheap: you need some garage space, insurance premiums, and some dedicated mechanic who knows what to do with your car.

A yacht needs marina space, which you have to keep paying for (unless you happen to own a sea-front house with a deep enough marina) and the upkeep of your yacht costs a lot of money. Fuel is expensive to keep running it and you must run the engine now and again. You must also run the air conditioning several times a month to ensure no mould grows there. You need to pay the crew. That's going to run you the cost of a Ferrari or two a month, just to keep it around.

A private jet may actually be cheaper to keep without using than a superyacht, but operating it is very expensive. Between airport fees, fuel (which you're spending a lot on because you're not flying around at the most economical cruising speed!), crew and other fees, each trip you take is going to be the cost of a couple of months of the superyacht's maintenance. And unlike the yacht, you don't usually live aboard the jet, so you'll probably also be paying for your mansion in Tuscany or Aspen.

So a fair number of people who could afford an intrasystem yacht couldn't afford a hyper-capable one. And some folks might not care about visiting other systems enough to want to spend the extra money even if they had it. Certainly from a system like Manticore if you want to leave the system there'd be no shortage of passenger berths you could take -- why buy the private jet if all you need is the occasional airline ticket?

Even if a first class ticket. Or, even, charter a luxury jet. It's very expensive to charter one, on the range of $100k/hour I think, but $1M isn't going to be even the downpayment on the private jet!

BTW, one of the ways Phil Knight from Nike pays for the upkeep of his jet (tail number N1KE) is that he "lets" the company use it, so the company pays for most of it. https://www.planespotters.net/photos/reg/N1KE

About that garage space. Now you've got me wondering where all of the private yachts are kept in the system. Are they moored/docked? Are they destroyed during war and simply no need to mention it? It must look like a parking lot someplace in the MBS.

I always thought RFC's Preston was simply a nod to Captain Proton from Star Trek Voyager. It's a long lineage indeed, going back through Flash Gordon to the 1930s' matinee shorts.

The closest thing to a 'real' Preston in the Honorverse has to be Victor Cachat.

penny wrote:About that garage space. Now you've got me wondering where all of the private yachts are kept in the system. Are they moored/docked? Are they destroyed during war and simply no need to mention it? It must look like a parking lot someplace in the MBS.

It sounds like maybe they aren't (all?) normally docked at the major stations.

Lisa Katherine O’Daley's (Sir Aivars Terekhov's mother in law) yacht survived OB because it "had still been waiting for a repair slip on Hephaestus when the attack came in." (But even if it had been in a normal dock at Hephaestus it'd likely have been destroyed)

The only other clue we have is that Hamish Alexander took his private yacht to Hephaestus (in Manticore's orbit) -- from Manticore (or at least he was on planet, at his White Haven estate, earlier in the scene when his brother called him and got him to go up and have that quite talk with Warner, the commander of Hephaestus, about delaying Warlock's return to Basilisk.

So, a) the White Haven yacht must not already have been docked at Hephaestus, because it'd be really weird to shuttle up to a ship docked there, then leave and return so that Warner could meet the yacht as it returned (presumably to the slip it'd jsut left ).
b) Likely the White Haven yacht was down on the planet, and thus capable of planetary landings (so I'd guess not hyper capable as that'd push the size up too large to really be capable of that) -- because if it was elsewhere in Manticore orbit (either on it's own or docked at some kind of private space marina) why would Hamish bother detouring to pick it up when any shuttle capable of taking him to the yacht would be equally capable of taking him direct to the station?

That said there are probably parking orbits, or even private 'marinas' (minimal stations where they can dock -- and so be more densely stored than and out of the way of all the orbital traffic -- possibly shared maintenance crews keep an eye on them all) so they're not all filling the ultimately limited (if large) number slips of the main orbital -- but I don't believe anything is actually said about where they're kept; so this is just my speculation.

Jonathan_S wrote:

penny wrote:About that garage space. Now you've got me wondering where all of the private yachts are kept in the system. Are they moored/docked? Are they destroyed during war and simply no need to mention it? It must look like a parking lot someplace in the MBS.

It sounds like maybe they aren't (all?) normally docked at the major stations.

Lisa Katherine O’Daley's (Sir Aivars Terekhov's mother in law) yacht survived OB because it "had still been waiting for a repair slip on Hephaestus when the attack came in." (But even if it had been in a normal dock at Hephaestus it'd likely have been destroyed)

The only other clue we have is that Hamish Alexander took his private yacht to Hephaestus (in Manticore's orbit) -- from Manticore (or at least he was on planet, at his White Haven estate, earlier in the scene when his brother called him and got him to go up and have that quite talk with Warner, the commander of Hephaestus, about delaying Warlock's return to Basilisk.

So, a) the White Haven yacht must not already have been docked at Hephaestus, because it'd be really weird to shuttle up to a ship docked there, then leave and return so that Warner could meet the yacht as it returned (presumably to the slip it'd jsut left ).
b) Likely the White Haven yacht was down on the planet, and thus capable of planetary landings (so I'd guess not hyper capable as that'd push the size up too large to really be capable of that) -- because if it was elsewhere in Manticore orbit (either on it's own or docked at some kind of private space marina) why would Hamish bother detouring to pick it up when any shuttle capable of taking him to the yacht would be equally capable of taking him direct to the station?

That said there are probably parking orbits, or even private 'marinas' (minimal stations where they can dock -- and so be more densely stored than and out of the way of all the orbital traffic -- possibly shared maintenance crews keep an eye on them all) so they're not all filling the ultimately limited (if large) number slips of the main orbital -- but I don't believe anything is actually said about where they're kept; so this is just my speculation.

If there is sufficient business, there may be wormhole "Ferries" - hyper freighters with nothing but a multiple, oversized shuttle bays, which take none-hyper yachts through the wormhole - there may be sufficient business with 2 wealthy systems like Beowulf and Manticore to warrant this.

Jonathan_S wrote:I'd assume that basically every government would have rules restricting, regulating, or outright banning privately owned armed ships in their territorial space -- so that wouldn't just be a Silesia thing.

Pirates' Bane and Ambuscade were technically considered vessels of the (Silesian) Confederate Navy, as Bachfisch had gotten a "had gotten his hands on the warrant as a naval auxiliary which let him evade the Confederacy's prohibition against privately owned armed vessels" [WoH]. Warrants which are, practically speaking, "nothing but ways around the prohibition against armed merchantmen which are available to those with sufficiently well-placed government patrons. Everyone knows the auxiliaries will never be called upon in their naval capacity" [WoH]

Other systems, with less concerns that their citizens might turn pirate, might have less convoluted ways to legally own an armed privately owned vessel -- but being armed might limit where such a ship could travel as it would have to follow to local rules about privately armed ships in whatever systems it wanted to visit.


However while Admiral Givens might have provided some surreptitious financial assistance to Bachfisch in setting or operating up his little shipping empire I'd assume that in order to maintain his cover his ships would have to at least appear profitable enough to look like a going business concern. (Hence the higher prices he demanded in exchange for the higher security his armed shipped offered)

But we're talking about a Preston of the Space Ways. Or the female version. Like a retired Honor Harrington whose exploits have likewise become more political in nature. Friendlier systems should welcome having the likes of a Preston in their midst. The system probably owes Preston for some past deed(s) done several times over. You might not mind them operating in your backyard armed. You do not want them assassinated in your system. If possible, the vessel would be armed but not obvious. Rather, its defensive capabilities are not readily made out. As hidden as possible. A tricked out vessel that systems are turning a blind eye to. At any rate, a Preston has a good reputation, not that of a troublemaker or a pirate. Unless you are one of the systems whose illegal ways have been exposed by such a person. No?

Honor Harrington might someday become the female version of Preston.