1926 PD - Export hardware

Jonathan_S wrote:

penny wrote:Interesting thread!

No SDs.

Why would ships with the accel advantage be on the list?

Which list? The list of export restricted or the list of potentially exportable?

I think some level of improved accel should be on the export list because that's part of what makes their LACs useful; and Manticore likes minor systems using LACs for much of their system defense. (Cheap, can provide a lot of coverage for a given amount of manpower, powerful enough to beat up pirate or small raiders)

And improved accel has been around for almost 20 years now with steadily improving performance; so there's lots of room to offer allies better accel than legacy platforms without giving away your current top of the line performance.


As for SDs. It's kind of hard for me to visualize an ally that's important enough that Manticore is willing to supply them ships of the line - while being unimportant enough not to get really modern ones. And most minor systems simply can't afford to buy, or even to operate, SDs. They'll need sometime cheaper for their system defense.

But, I guess if you've got a cash buyer willing to pay for a custom design there's no particular reason you couldn't throw together a design for a capital grade ERM design (like Erewhon did) and a then an export SD armed with it -- whether tube firing or pod based. I just tend to doubt there's anybody out there who can afford it and which Manticore is willing to sell it to. (The League could certainly afford it, though they probably don't want to buy from Manticore and Manticore probably doesn't want to sell to them -- and they'd presumably want something armed with their version of the Cataphract anyway)

Personally I wouldn't put them on either list. Risking getting ships captured that could show the way to achieve a higher acceleration is risky.

I wouldn't export any version of an SD. You just don't want to end up battling your own hardware. It isn't so much that one might not be able to trust an ally, per se. It could be that that ally could be overrun and the warships taken as prizes. See Ukraine.

penny wrote:I wouldn't export any version of an SD. You just don't want to end up battling your own hardware. It isn't so much that one might not be able to trust an ally, per se. It could be that that ally could be overrun and the warships taken as prizes. See Ukraine.

If something is in the export market, then an interested party does not need to wait until they can capture something in a conflict. I'm fairly certain that the USAF has purchased second hand MIG fighters for example.

From a webpage for The National Interest:

The United States has purchased 81 Soviet-era combat aircraft from Kazakhstan, a deal that includes MiG-31 interceptors, MiG-27 and MiG-29 fighters, and Su-24 bombers, all from the Cold War era.

tlb wrote:

penny wrote:I wouldn't export any version of an SD. You just don't want to end up battling your own hardware. It isn't so much that one might not be able to trust an ally, per se. It could be that that ally could be overrun and the warships taken as prizes. See Ukraine.

If something is in the export market, then an interested party does not need to wait until they can capture something in a conflict. I'm fairly certain that the USAF has purchased second hand MIG fighters for example.

From a webpage for The National Interest:

The United States has purchased 81 Soviet-era combat aircraft from Kazakhstan, a deal that includes MiG-31 interceptors, MiG-27 and MiG-29 fighters, and Su-24 bombers, all from the Cold War era.

IINM, that entire procurement was slated for delivery to Ukraine. The US purchased the fighters to give to Ukraine. I dunno what secrets the US could have gleaned from those fighters. Even so, the US should not follow suit and have ground forces complaining when they end up facing their own hardware in battle. Like what has happened on several occasions.

penny wrote:I wouldn't export any version of an SD. You just don't want to end up battling your own hardware. It isn't so much that one might not be able to trust an ally, per se. It could be that that ally could be overrun and the warships taken as prizes. See Ukraine.

tlb wrote:If something is in the export market, then an interested party does not need to wait until they can capture something in a conflict. I'm fairly certain that the USAF has purchased second hand MIG fighters for example

penny wrote:IINM, that entire procurement was slated for delivery to Ukraine. The US purchased the fighters to give to Ukraine. I dunno what secrets the US could have gleaned from those fighters.

That might be true for recent purchases, but how about this:

Project Constant Peg was a secret program to train US Air Force, Navy, and Marine Corps fighter aircrews to fly against Soviet-designed aircraft. The USAF’s 4477th Test and Evaluation Squadron (TES), nicknamed the “Red Eagles,” flew MiG-17 “Fresco,” MiG-21 “Fishbed,” and later MiG-23 “Flogger” aircraft. The Red Eagles gave American aircrews the skills and confidence to defeat these threats in aerial combat.

Established in 1977, Constant Peg applied lessons learned earlier in Southeast Asia. Over North Vietnam, the USAF and USN had faced high losses to enemy aircraft, air-to-air missiles, and surface-to-air missiles. These losses sharply illustrated training shortfalls and a loss of skill in the art of the “dogfight.” Between 1972 and 1977, the USAF and USN started a number of specialized training programs to reinvigorate the fighter force, including establishing the first Aggressor squadrons. These squadrons flew USAF aircraft but employed Soviet tactics and flying techniques to simulate realistic adversaries. Constant Peg improved upon this method of instruction—Red Eagles pilots not only used Soviet fighter tactics but also flew the same MiG aircraft that their students could one day face in combat.

In the late 1960s, the USAF secretly acquired and tested several MiGs in the classified Have Doughnut and Have Drill programs. These tests provided the first complete technical breakdowns of MiG-17 and MiG-21 aircraft. The USAF and other members of the intelligence community acquired additional MiGs, and USAF maintainers skillfully restored them for flight. The MiG-17 and MiG-21 formed the backbone of the Constant Peg fleet until they were joined by the MiG-23 in 1980. The Red Eagles retired the aging MiG-17s in 1982 due to obsolescence and safety concerns.

tlb wrote:

Relax wrote:For system defense, Capacitor fed MDM pods seems a fair thing to send to Associate allies.

As Jonathan_S said:

Any MDM is more questionable as the "baffle" that is the true secret to them still isn't known outside the Grand Alliance.

Perhaps system defense for those outside the Grand Alliance can be built with Cataphracts.

I too used to Agree with your statement 100%. In fact, I have whined on this forum several times about Cataphracts overwriting the Baffle invention.
BUT: DW Overwrote this aspect and it has NEVER been mentioned since. The Baffle invention eliminated impeller node destruction from operation near other nodes was eliminated as cannon by the introduction of Cataphract which has inoperable single use impeller nodes butted up against active impeller nodes. Sorry, the baffle is no more. In fact, Cataphracts are SUPERIOR to the current MDM if it was not for GA superior ECM + Grav Lens tech.

In fact, currently, the most Potent missile(has not been built in text yet) is 1 Vipers tied 1 normal CM end to end in Cataphract mode. If one extrapolates, one could argue all NEW build ships should have CM tubes slightly longer allowing 2 CM's into same missile tube. With a SLIGHT modification to the CM's they could automatically connect allowing you to fire the "cataphract" CM out the tube giving near infinite range with 130kG acceleration profile terminal performance as both offensive or defensive missile. No reason one could not do this with a Major warhead either(bigger diameter missile tube, and would allow for terminal warhead to contain MULTIPLE CM's with their single shot LASER rods. Remember cannister CM's out of normal missile tubes? No reason cannot do this on a Missile now with introduction of Cataphract "tech" . After all DW already eliminated the baffle as canon in later books.

Sorry, the Baffle as "tech tree" vanished. Personally, I hate it as it destroys the universe. We should see broadside missile tubes firing a single cataphract CM with ~7 CM's tied to it for missile defense and it would give near infinite CM defense range.

Tech of MDM's even, RHN MDM's represent are
1) Superior Super Dense Fusion Plasma Capacitors
2) ECM Head capability
3) Grav Lens Tech

But apparently GRASERS, using vastly less dense power source, than nuclear fusion bombs and only "super" capacitor plasma are now able to be fitted ~magically to missile heads and have superior throughput to bomb pumped LASER warheads so. All of the above minus the ECM aspect seem superfluous at this point against any MALIGN force who you have no idea if they are going to sell or not.

MALIGN WHO ARE selling +++20Mkm range Cataphracts. In effect, ANYTHING inferior to DDM capability is only viable against pirates. That means EDM/ERM RMN missiles are in effect useless. Cataphracts are in effect infinite range due to them being DDM since the Baffle invention was over written in DW's NEED for the MALIGN forces needing SOMETHING to counter GA tech and not be an utter mil porn book to inflict damage.

Since Eric Flint, conveniently dead, invented Torch/Congo MUCH earlier than DW wanted in his timeline allowing Honor's survival, we can blame him for the loss of the MDM Baffle invention as well as Honor's longevity.

tlb wrote:That might be true for recent purchases, but how about this:

Project Constant Peg was a secret program to train US Air Force, Navy, and Marine Corps fighter aircrews to fly against Soviet-designed aircraft. The USAF’s 4477th Test and Evaluation Squadron (TES), nicknamed the “Red Eagles,” flew MiG-17 “Fresco,” MiG-21 “Fishbed,” and later MiG-23 “Flogger” aircraft. The Red Eagles gave American aircrews the skills and confidence to defeat these threats in aerial combat.

Established in 1977, Constant Peg applied lessons learned earlier in Southeast Asia. Over North Vietnam, the USAF and USN had faced high losses to enemy aircraft, air-to-air missiles, and surface-to-air missiles. These losses sharply illustrated training shortfalls and a loss of skill in the art of the “dogfight.” Between 1972 and 1977, the USAF and USN started a number of specialized training programs to reinvigorate the fighter force, including establishing the first Aggressor squadrons. These squadrons flew USAF aircraft but employed Soviet tactics and flying techniques to simulate realistic adversaries. Constant Peg improved upon this method of instruction—Red Eagles pilots not only used Soviet fighter tactics but also flew the same MiG aircraft that their students could one day face in combat.

In the late 1960s, the USAF secretly acquired and tested several MiGs in the classified Have Doughnut and Have Drill programs. These tests provided the first complete technical breakdowns of MiG-17 and MiG-21 aircraft. The USAF and other members of the intelligence community acquired additional MiGs, and USAF maintainers skillfully restored them for flight. The MiG-17 and MiG-21 formed the backbone of the Constant Peg fleet until they were joined by the MiG-23 in 1980. The Red Eagles retired the aging MiG-17s in 1982 due to obsolescence and safety concerns.

Or more to the point, in 1997, the US bought 21 fighters from Moldavia specifically to keep them from Iran's hands. Some of the Moldavian fighters were modified for the Nuclear mission and Moldavia had let the US know Iran was interested in purchasing the fighters. The US bought the lot (including non-nuclear capable fighters) to keep them out if Iran's hands.

https://www.armscontrol.org/act/1997-10/press-releases/us-buys-moldovan-aircraft-prevent-acquisition-iran

Relax wrote:I too used to Agree with your statement 100%. In fact, I have whined on this forum several times about Cataphracts overwriting the Baffle invention.
BUT: DW Overwrote this aspect and it has NEVER been mentioned since. The Baffle invention eliminated impeller node destruction from operation near other nodes was eliminated as cannon by the introduction of Cataphract which has inoperable single use impeller nodes butted up against active impeller nodes. Sorry, the baffle is no more. In fact, Cataphracts are SUPERIOR to the current MDM if it was not for GA superior ECM + Grav Lens tech.

We've never seen a drawing of a Cataphract -- but that's certainly not how I'd understood them.

MDMs have 3 rings all at the rear of a single missile body, protected from each other by baffles.

Cataphracts, as I understand them, are actual 2 stage missiles; a wider initial stage that uses a pretty standard missile impeller ring at its rear; and then atop it -- and so separated by a significant physical distance, a narrower second stage with a CM derived impeller ring. (and when the CM 2nd stage lights off I believe it drops the 1st stage -- were-as an MDM doesn't physically stage; all its impeller rings a carried for the entire flight). It's my understanding that the significant physical separation between the impeller rings is what allows them to work without a baffle -- something speculated about as far back as Travis Long's day. (And I've speculated that the smaller diameter 2nd stage is also a requirement; having the CM ring smaller than the missile drive ring might further reduce any damaging coupling between them)

Now one of the benefits of Cataphracts is that you do get two different acceleration profiles -- something that RFC has said current MDMs can't do (they need all their drives set to the same accel).

But the disadvantages of that staged arrangement is that the missile is longer than an MDM, has a narrower warhead bus (so has to carry a lighter warhead - with SD launched Cataphract carrying only CA/BC grade warheads), and can't practically include a 3rd drive/stage as that'd take the missile from overly long to ludicrously long. (It might also be harder to make one with a microfusion plant as that would have to somehow get squeezed into the smaller upper stage -- making it harder to build a Cataphract based dazzler or dragons teeth equivalent that's anywhere near as effective)

So I disagree that Cataphracts are overall better than MDMs. And IIRC the MAlign seemed to agree - considering them a temporary workaround until they could reinvent or steal the ability to make true MDMs.

Relax wrote:Sorry, the Baffle as "tech tree" vanished.

Tech MDM's even, RHN MDM's represent are
1) Superior Super Dense Fusion Plasma Capacitors
2) ECM Head capability
3) Grav Lens Tech

But apparently GRASERS, using vastly less dense power source, than nuclear fusion bombs and only "super" capacitor plasma are now able to be fitted ~magically to missile heads and have superior throughput to bomb pumped LASER warheads so. All of the above minus the ECM aspect seem superfluous at this point against any MALIGN force who you have no idea if they are going to sell or not.

MALIGN WHO ARE selling +++20Mkm range Cataphracts. In effect, ANYTHING inferior to DDM capability is only viable against pirates. That means EDM/ERM RMN missiles are in effect useless. Cataphracts are in effect infinite range due to them being DDM since the Baffle invention was over written in DW's NEED for the MALIGN forces needing SOMETHING to counter GA tech and not be an utter mil porn book to inflict damage.

Since Eric Flint, conveniently dead, invented Torch/Congo MUCH earlier than DW wanted in his timeline allowing Honor's survival, we can blame him for the loss of the MDM Baffle invention as well as Honor's longevity.

And yet, there is still a noticeable difference between a Cataphract and a MDM in the Manticore Navy: the MDM is much more compact.

PS: I should have indicated that the information about Constant Peg came from the National Museum of the United States Air Force website.

Relax wrote:
I too used to Agree with your statement 100%. In fact, I have whined on this forum several times about Cataphracts overwriting the Baffle invention.
BUT: DW Overwrote this aspect and it has NEVER been mentioned since. The Baffle invention eliminated impeller node destruction from operation near other nodes was eliminated as cannon by the introduction of Cataphract which has inoperable single use impeller nodes butted up against active impeller nodes. Sorry, the baffle is no more. In fact, Cataphracts are SUPERIOR to the current MDM if it was not for GA superior ECM + Grav Lens tech.

In fact, currently, the most Potent missile(has not been built in text yet) is 1 Vipers tied 1 normal CM end to end in Cataphract mode. If one extrapolates, one could argue all NEW build ships should have CM tubes slightly longer allowing 2 CM's into same missile tube. With a SLIGHT modification to the CM's they could automatically connect allowing you to fire the "cataphract" CM out the tube giving near infinite range with 130kG acceleration profile terminal performance as both offensive or defensive missile. No reason one could not do this with a Major warhead either. After all DW already did in the books.

Sorry, the Baffle as "tech tree" vanished.

Tech MDM's even, RHN MDM's represent are
1) Superior Super Dense Fusion Plasma Capacitors
2) ECM Head capability
3) Grav Lens Tech

But apparently GRASERS, using vastly less dense power source, than nuclear fusion bombs and only "super" capacitor plasma are now able to be fitted ~magically to missile heads and have superior throughput to bomb pumped LASER warheads so. All of the above minus the ECM aspect seem superfluous at this point against any MALIGN force who you have no idea if they are going to sell or not.

MALIGN WHO ARE selling +++20Mkm range Cataphracts. In effect, ANYTHING inferior to DDM capability is only viable against pirates. That means EDM/ERM RMN missiles are in effect useless. Cataphracts are in effect infinite range due to them being DDM since the Baffle invention was over written in DW's NEED for the MALIGN forces needing SOMETHING to counter GA tech and not be an utter mil porn book to inflict damage.

Since Eric Flint, conveniently dead, invented Torch/Congo MUCH earlier than DW wanted in his timeline allowing Honor's survival, we can blame him for the loss of the MDM Baffle invention as well as Honor's longevity.

Well, The baffle isn't obsolete, or erased from the series - the Cataphract concept "worked around" the physics of the issue by simple physical separation. With their staged approach, the node rings are no longer physically next to each other on the Missile body like they are on an MDM - they are on separate missile bodies stacked end on end so that the node rings get sufficient separation from each other. If anything, it's a poor man's engineering solution to a complex problem - but one that does allow for the missile separation and a ballistic phase, which gives the concept superior range to an EDM.

tlb wrote:

Relax wrote:Sorry, the Baffle as "tech tree" vanished..

And yet, there is still a noticeable difference between a Cataphract and a MDM in the Manticore Navy: the MDM is much more compact..

Well if you run the numbers, Its not. By this I mean one SHOULD just use CM drives in multiple. No reason to use an SDM drive. After all DW already threw out a compensator field as relevant by introduction of the Cataphract which was the ENTIRE justification of the baffle to begin with. Oh yea and Cataphracts with giant missiles jammed on its nose outside the compensator field does not degrade acceleration.... or being forced to increase its compensator field making an effective LARGER mass to be motivated does not decrease acceleration either. Nor decrease its drive time . Pretty much destroying in universe physics.

In fact, using an SDM gives vastly WORSE kinematic performance than say 2 CM drives. We are told CM's are ~10t and SDM's are ~70+(drive + warhead and warhead is ~60%. Using Cataphract "logic" we should be able to stuff 3 or so CM drives up the butt of a LASER warhead without ANY acceleration penalty, nor drive endurance penalty...

Not that this matters as the portion I was discussing was MDM Pods for system defense(we aren't talking SDP here). Cataphracts out of pods can be ANY size one wishes. Current cataphracts were ONLY limited due to Garbage SLN designed ships using SDM's. By DW logic, they were morons and should have just used several CM drives attached to a NORMAL Capital grade Laser head.