Commodore Tremaine

Jonathan_S wrote:

penny wrote:
One distinguishing factor does seem to be that a Commodore has the distinction of having served aboard two ships or roles simultaneously. Which would account for Tremaine's COLAC duties. But I do not want to think that his special assignment actually hampered him in some way. Fueled by (taken from the net) ...

It’s not that they’re serving aboard two ships simultaneously - Commodore is (at least is some Earth navies) a courtesy rank given to designate a non-admiral who has been assigned a (usually temporary) multi-ship independent command. That’s usually the senior most captain of the ships, but it doesn’t have to be. Sometimes navies will assign a separate officer as Commodore who all the ship captains report to. (Like they would to an Admiral who commanded a formation)

But just like the Admiral isn’t serving on two ships simultaneously just because he’s assigned command of their formation a captain bumped up to Commadore still serves on just their ship; they can merely give orders to the captains of the other ships in their formation.

So say the admiral of a carrier group splits off a tin can and a couple of frigates to go deal with a situation a few days away. The destroyer’s captain is likely going to be put in charge of that 3 ship detachment and would be called Commodore (instead of their permanent rank) to indicate that and so it’s clear when people are speaking of the officer in charge of the formation.

I always thought of it in terms of Job and Rank. Depending on the current rules for a navy, "Commodore" could be either. Currently in the US navy, Commodore is a Job - the leader of a squadron of ships. Or, as stated above, The title can also be temporarily be given to a visiting individual of Captain Rank to avoid confusion (1 Captain per ship). A similiar job is Commandant - The senior commander of an outpost, fort or port. In the Navy, this role could be filled by anything from an Lt-Commander to an Admiral, depending on the size of the post. It's a job, not a rank.

Rank, being more a measure of experience and seniority. In WWII, the Rank was reinstated (As a Theater Rank, not permanent rank) for leaders assigned to lead small multi-ship units. This was done to have parity with European navies and establish clear chains of command where more "front line" leaders were required. Due to the rapid expansion of the armed forces, many officers who had served in peace were given a "theater rank" several slots above their permanent one so the forces could rapidly grow the officer corp. to lead the new forces - those that under-preformed were returned to their old rank when rotated home, and most reverted after the war during the draw down.

Jonathan_S wrote:It’s not that they’re serving aboard two ships simultaneously - Commodore is (at least is some Earth navies) a courtesy rank given to designate a non-admiral who has been assigned a (usually temporary) multi-ship independent command. That’s usually the senior most captain of the ships, but it doesn’t have to be. Sometimes navies will assign a separate officer as Commodore who all the ship captains report to. (Like they would to an Admiral who commanded a formation)

The RMN is like that: any post-rank captain that is leading a formation of two or more ships gets a courtesy promotion to Commodore. You see that more usually with DesRons, especially during the war with the Solarian League. For example, for the Battle of Saltash, DesRon 301 was led by "Commodore" Zavala.

Some navies also give a courtesy promotion to any captain aboard the ship that isn't THE captain. Marine and Army captains become "major" aboard a ship.

So say the admiral of a carrier group splits off a tin can and a couple of frigates to go deal with a situation a few days away. The destroyer’s captain is likely going to be put in charge of that 3 ship detachment and would be called Commodore (instead of their permanent rank) to indicate that and so it’s clear when people are speaking of the officer in charge of the formation.

Theemile wrote:It took Honor 26/27 years from academy graduation to achieve Commodore.

But up until the Basilisk Incident, Honor was being held back by the Pavel Young clique, so she's not actually a good example. Her career didn't shoot up until that incident, when she skipped the Captain (j.g.) rank, then was made full Admiral in the GSN before being promoted to Commodore in the RMN. Later she skipped both Rear and Vice Admiral in the RMN.

Another not-so-good example was Michelle Henke, who was being held back by herself. She was so careful to make sure that no one was trying carry favour because she was the Queen's cousin that her career was actually slower than Honor's. Remember that Honor was actually worried on having surpassed Henke and taking her on as XO aboard HMS Nike. She was only a Captain (j.g.) aboard HMS Agni for several years before getting HMS Edward Saganami.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:

penny wrote:When coming across Commodore Tremaine's rank in TEiF, I was a bit surprised. I hadn't thought about it, but if I had I would have expected it to be a tad higher, even without Honor's influence. But with Honor's influence, someone who has been in her inner circle since the beginning, I would think his rank would be higher than a Commodore. Not that a Commodore is anything to sneeze at.

Put another way, he was an Ensign in 1900 PD and was about to become Rear Admiral in 1924. That's a very fast career.

Look up Chester W. Nimitz's career path (Ensign in 1907CE, Captain in the mid 1920s, Rear Admiral in the late 1930s).
Note that Tremaine had the "advantage" of serving in over a decade of war in those 24 years.

(edited because his commission of Ensign came 2 years after graduation from Annapolis, because of laws of the time)

ThinksMarkedly wrote:

penny wrote:When coming across Commodore Tremaine's rank in TEiF, I was a bit surprised. I hadn't thought about it, but if I had I would have expected it to be a tad higher, even without Honor's influence. But with Honor's influence, someone who has been in her inner circle since the beginning, I would think his rank would be higher than a Commodore. Not that a Commodore is anything to sneeze at.

Put another way, he was an Ensign in 1900 PD and was about to become Rear Admiral in 1924. That's a very fast career.

Robert_A_Woodward wrote:Look up Chester W. Nimitz's career path (Ensign in 1907CE, Captain in the mid 1920s, Rear Admiral in the late 1930s).
Note that Tremaine had the "advantage" of serving in over a decade of war in those 24 years.

(edited because his commission of Ensign came 2 years after graduation from Annapolis, because of laws of the time)

He had the advantage of over a decade of war and the distinction of serving in the Salamander's inner circle his entire career. With her blessing. And she surely would not have wanted Tremaine's career to be stalled like her own. Yet, Megan was breathing down his neck.

I don't think Nimitz had that kind of backing.

Nice parallel.

Tremaine was in small craft his whole career until Cruiser Squadron. When Honor was talking to Truman in? War of Honor or was it AAC where she acknowledged that those in CLAC's or LAC's have slower promotion even in wartime.

Or maybe it was when It was Tremaine showed up with his cruiser squadron in Mission of Honor.

In either case Small Craft Captains, etc ascend the ranks slower even when admirals etc are being knocked off constantly due to war.

Relax wrote:Tremaine was in small craft his whole career until Cruiser Squadron. When Honor was talking to Truman in? War of Honor or was it AAC where she acknowledged that those in CLAC's or LAC's have slower promotion even in wartime.

Or maybe it was when It was Tremaine showed up with his cruiser squadron in Mission of Honor.

In either case Small Craft Captains, etc ascend the ranks slower even when admirals etc are being knocked off constantly due to war.

That certainly makes sense. Upstream I did say I did not want to believe it ...

penny wrote:But I do not want to think that his special assignment actually hampered him in some way.

But it does seem as if that is what happened. Instead of him being off somewhere in the heat of battle getting a chance to prove himself. Like Megan, and Honor throughout her entire career.

I do feel that in the long run, Tremaine will prove to be ladled with heavy mettle. Being in Honor's inner circle all of his career, simply has to shine through at some point.

Which is what I was expecting of him even before TEiF when he was given what I think is a menial job spying on El Dorado. Yes, it was an important job, but just not what I expected for Tremaine; or wanted for him.

Theemile wrote:It took Honor 26/27 years from academy graduation to achieve Commodore.

For me, the surprising career was how long Rafe was a Sr. Captain. Scotty passed him career wise while Rafe was playing Honor's Flag Captain in a Hydra CLAC, then an Invictus.

As someone already mentioned, Honor's career was being torpedoed.

Actually, both of them could have suffered for being "mamas boys" for so long; always clinging to Honor's mess dress coattails. LOL

At any rate, Rafe had a bad mark on his service record for disobeying Captain Sander's direct orders when he was ordered not to bring up RMMS Dorado's wedge, alerting the People's Navy that the RMN could defeat the crippler.

A quarter century of wartime service gives one a lot of chances for promotion- if they survive- must from attrition in the higher ranks. Stepping into a dead man's shoes and all of that. There's also opportunities in the expansion and reactivation of active forces after the peace. In Scottie's case, his small craft specialty was probably a detriment until the LAC made a comeback. His receiving the CAG (or whatever Himself decided that position was called in the Honorverse) slot, it gave his career a bump on the command track. Until then, he hadn't commanded anything bigger than a LAC except the temporary command in the Elysian Navy.

All of that being said, Scotty wasn't going to be promoted to higher ranks until he held major ship command. LAC's are fine and dandy, but even running a carrier wing isn't going to equate to a major ship. You don't get a flag until you prove yourself capableof handling multiple ships, ship divisions, etc ....

Commodores the tadpole version of Admirals. As usual, you get all the responsibility without the bump in pay.

The British Navy back in the age of sail used the position. It went to a senior Captain of the List- but he didn't get a flag captain dedicated squadron staff. He ran his ship AND the squadron with what he's got.

RN Commodores could be "big" or "small and in Nelson's day the flags were different.

Small was the senior Captain in a group or station. He remained Captain of his own Ship while having operational authority over the other vessels in the group or Station.

Large was the Junior Admiral. He had his flag Captain etc.

Neither rank was permanent - as some body else said its the Job not the career. So when the deployment was over the Broad Pennant (Of a Commodore) was lowered and the Officer was once more a Captain.

In the 20th Century Commodore was also the rank used for the Officer in charge of a Convoy, That said he was not in charge of the Escort. These were normally long service RNR Officers called back for the Duration.

Discussing CLAC's and LAC Wings, The RMN does not have a history of Fighting Small craft so no seperate rank structure for officers within the LAC Squadrons and Wings as the USN and FAA use. The First CLAC seemed to have a senior staff of Admiral's - ok when developing the Concept where all that experience is needed but not so good long term once the roles are understood. Since we don't have a Rank of Wing Commander then "Commodor" makes sense. Mind you we again end up with Captains (SG) giving orders to Commodores (CLAC). Note there is a lot of role definition between the Captain of a CVN and his CAG and the Admiral who is probably on board which defines authority and how it's used. (The Loss of HMS Glorious in WW2 is a fine example of when the Ship Captain does not understand and work well with his CAG (Not that they used that term)).

Tremaine's pathway does imply that he ended up in a backwater for too long. Not promoting successful LAC commanders into Destroyers seems to me a weakness that BuPers is not likly to suffer from. Still promotion up to "CAG" without real ship experience would be a significant weakness. Did Scotty insist on playing with his toys to long ? :->. Like Michelle it took an outside kick to rectify that.

A Captain in charge of a Destroyer is going to be responsable for far more independant action than any senior LAC commander on a CLAC. Even Depot LAC deployment probably don't result in the LAC commander being independant of higher authority. That experience is something that Scottie needed to show and probably had not.

Note that with Our current Naval Personel Sat Comms etc. mean that interms of freedom of action there is not a lot of difference between Naval Officers and Naval Air Force Officers (FAA USN USMC etc.) of a given rank. Something not true in the Honourverse. Promoting a Squadron Commander to command a CVN via a short commission in charge of an Oiler to learn ship handling does not change much at the higher levels where at least in a peace time navy it's all about man and political managment with a large chunk of logistics for a Destroyer Captain or a Squadron commander.