might other nations be asking if the mantis are the badies?

/quote]

Uh-huh... as is the Democratic People's Republic of Korea![/quote]Democratic Republic of Afghanistan, Democratic Republic of the Congo, Democratic Republic of Vietnam, Federal Democratic Republic of Ethiopia, People’s Democratic Republic of Algeria, People's Democratic Republic of Yemen, People's Republic of China, People's Democratic Republic of Ethiopia, and the Somali Democratic Republic


Almost like countries that are democratic, or republics, don't need their names to advertise that they are [/quote]

Harken back to Heinline's Glory Road where Oscar references "unfriendly Peace Lovers". Those lovely, self proclaimed "Demorcratic Republics" listed are....not so much of either and are very unfriendly unless you want to buy their stuff and give them money.

What's a basic rule of propaganda? Well, "lie like a rug" and name yourself as something noble and .....not totalitarian at all while you do awful things to anybody in your own population who doesn't to fully support the Party Line or contribute to the personal wealth of the Great and Fearless Leader (s). Sometimes they dress themselves up as the pillar of Religious reason and light for the rest of the world routinely operate as a Mideveal (or earlier) theocracy to crush anyone who does not fully submit themselves to "God"( and his temporal rulers on earth.
Oh, is my cynicism showing?

Warning Godwin's law breach.
Goebbel (Hitler's propaganda chief) had a couple of rules. "If you are going to tell a lie make it a big one, as no one will believe you would take the risk", and "If you are going to do something unpopular, first accuse your opponent of doing it".

Brigade XO wrote:/quote]

Uh-huh... as is the Democratic People's Republic of Korea!

Democratic Republic of Afghanistan, Democratic Republic of the Congo, Democratic Republic of Vietnam, Federal Democratic Republic of Ethiopia, People’s Democratic Republic of Algeria, People's Democratic Republic of Yemen, People's Republic of China, People's Democratic Republic of Ethiopia, and the Somali Democratic Republic


Almost like countries that are democratic, or republics, don't need their names to advertise that they are [/quote]

Harken back to Heinline's Glory Road where Oscar references "unfriendly Peace Lovers". Those lovely, self proclaimed "Demorcratic Republics" listed are....not so much of either and are very unfriendly unless you want to buy their stuff and give them money.

What's a basic rule of propaganda? Well, "lie like a rug" and name yourself as something noble and .....not totalitarian at all while you do awful things to anybody in your own population who doesn't to fully support the Party Line or contribute to the personal wealth of the Great and Fearless Leader (s). Sometimes they dress themselves up as the pillar of Religious reason and light for the rest of the world routinely operate as a Mideveal (or earlier) theocracy to crush anyone who does not fully submit themselves to "God"( and his temporal rulers on earth.
Oh, is my cynicism showing?[/quote]

Daryl wrote:My country is The Commonwealth of Australia, which when you think of it is a socialist ideal.
Meanwhile from a distance, the United States appears to be more and more the Disunited States, with two distinct tribes. Educated big city elites, and religious country good old boys.

You've been watching and reading too much American news media- which is based in the big cities.

It's ironic that the most provincial areas of the US are the big cities. Take an American urbanite out of his concrete jungle and they turn into the stereotypical rubbernecking hicks. It's not a new phenomenon. The term that used to be in vogue was 'fly over states'. That encompassed anywhere not on the coasts and not in a major city.

Don't believe everything you read or see- especially from the American press. They are too busy telling you what to believe to bother with piddly little details like giving you the facts so you can form your own opinions.

jtg452 wrote:

Daryl wrote:My country is The Commonwealth of Australia, which when you think of it is a socialist ideal.
Meanwhile from a distance, the United States appears to be more and more the Disunited States, with two distinct tribes. Educated big city elites, and religious country good old boys.

You've been watching and reading too much American news media- which is based in the big cities.

It's ironic that the most provincial areas of the US are the big cities. Take an American urbanite out of his concrete jungle and they turn into the stereotypical rubbernecking hicks. It's not a new phenomenon. The term that used to be in vogue was 'fly over states'. That encompassed anywhere not on the coasts and not in a major city.

Don't believe everything you read or see- especially from the American press. They are too busy telling you what to believe to bother with piddly little details like giving you the facts so you can form your own opinions.

Most people listening to said news would be surprised to find that the majority of American "hick" farmers have an advanced degree in Business, Economics or Agro Science. 38% are reported to have a 4 year degree, and an additional 32% have a 2 year (associates) degree.

Theemile wrote:
Most people listening to said news would be surprised to find that the majority of American "hick" farmers have an advanced degree in Business, Economics or Agro Science. 38% are reported to have a 4 year degree, and an additional 32% have a 2 year (associates) degree.

Here in UA (Upper Alabama), there are a lot of "gentleman farmers" who brought between a quarter quarter section (40 acres) and maybe a whole section (one square mile, 640 acres), and either rent the land out to a farmer, or use it for something they can devote weekends to. Or maybe it's a piece of granddaddy's farm. Meanwhile, they work in the defense/aerospace sector as an engineer of some kind. A lot of them have PhDs in, shall we say, interesting little areas of physics or the engineering sciences. Thirty years ago, the Census Bureau reported that the county had more PhDs, per capita, than Silicon Valley.

Fox2! wrote:

Theemile wrote:
Most people listening to said news would be surprised to find that the majority of American "hick" farmers have an advanced degree in Business, Economics or Agro Science. 38% are reported to have a 4 year degree, and an additional 32% have a 2 year (associates) degree.

Here in UA (Upper Alabama), there are a lot of "gentleman farmers" who brought between a quarter quarter section (40 acres) and maybe a whole section (one square mile, 640 acres), and either rent the land out to a farmer, or use it for something they can devote weekends to. Or maybe it's a piece of granddaddy's farm. Meanwhile, they work in the defense/aerospace sector as an engineer of some kind. A lot of them have PhDs in, shall we say, interesting little areas of physics or the engineering sciences. Thirty years ago, the Census Bureau reported that the county had more PhDs, per capita, than Silicon Valley.

Redstone area I take it?

Theemile wrote:

Fox2! wrote:
Here in UA (Upper Alabama), there are a lot of "gentleman farmers" who brought between a quarter quarter section (40 acres) and maybe a whole section (one square mile, 640 acres), and either rent the land out to a farmer, or use it for something they can devote weekends to. Or maybe it's a piece of granddaddy's farm. Meanwhile, they work in the defense/aerospace sector as an engineer of some kind. A lot of them have PhDs in, shall we say, interesting little areas of physics or the engineering sciences. Thirty years ago, the Census Bureau reported that the county had more PhDs, per capita, than Silicon Valley.

Redstone area I take it?

Possibly. But if I told you, I'd have to kill you.

Many of them have low badge numbers at the most successful startups you've never heard of. Many of them have low badge numbers at the most unsuccessful startups you've never heard of.

There have also been significant developments in the life sciences over the past 20 years or so.

Returning to the original question, I don't think Manticore's neighbors will see them as a threat. The main reason is that all of their expansion has been accomplished diplomatically.

In Basilisk, they put a lot of effort into protecting the Stiltie's culture, and focused on the legitimate concern of controlling wormhole access to their home system.

Grayson is an ally but has maintained its independence.

Trevor's Star asked to be admitted to the Star Kingdom. So did the Talbott Cluster.

Silesia may have been strong-armed into the partition, but it was all done legally on paper, at least. Most of the Silesian government officials stepped down to avoid prosecution, and good riddance.

The Star Empire did not conquer Haven, even though they could have. Instead, Honor sat down with Pritchart and talked it through.

dscott8 wrote:Silesia may have been strong-armed into the partition, but it was all done legally on paper, at least. Most of the Silesian government officials stepped down to avoid prosecution, and good riddance.

The Silesia annexation is too close to what the Peeps used to do. The use of overt force to annex the system wasn't that common in the beginning, instead they would do that via diplomatic means and by corrupting government officials into accepting those diplomatic means. The military often also arrived to restore order after a breakdown that was instigated by the Peeps themselves.

However, it's also different enough that it should pass muster to anyone who bothers to look. First, the problems in Silesia aren't new and weren't caused by Manticore: they went back centuries. I'm sure there can be papers written that attempt to show a link between Manticore's trade in Silesia and its enforced commerce protection perpetuating the cycle of corruption and piracy (and who knows, it might actually be partially true, because Silesia was a one-of-a-kind case in known space), but there will be far more evidence arguing for inherent problems in the Sillie government system.

Second, the referendum to join the Empire is not going to be an immediate thing, like the Peeps used to do. It will be years between the announcement of the referendum and it actually concluding in all systems, enough time for independent observers to confirm it's not rigged. That didn't happen in Peep-annexed systems: by the time anyone arrived to oversee the fairness of the voting, it was already done and the annexation was fait accompli.

Third, there are a lot of examples of systems remaining independent even after the Manty set up direct investments and even military bases. Grayson, as you said, is just the prime example, but not the only one. Marsh and Idaho are others. We can also point to the Madras Sector right now to show that Manticore is not forcibly annexing a full new sector after liberating them by force of arms. Then there's the Maya Sector that no one even attempted to annex, despite being a much juicier prize.

Fourth and finally, those systems that are Manticore's neighbours know very well what Manticore has done and what forced annexation looks like. Alizon, Casca, and Zanzibar were members of the original Alliance, they received military protection from the RMN without there ever being a hint that Manticore was attempting to annex them.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:

dscott8 wrote:Silesia may have been strong-armed into the partition, but it was all done legally on paper, at least. Most of the Silesian government officials stepped down to avoid prosecution, and good riddance.

The Silesia annexation is too close to what the Peeps used to do. The use of overt force to annex the system wasn't that common in the beginning, instead they would do that via diplomatic means and by corrupting government officials into accepting those diplomatic means. The military often also arrived to restore order after a breakdown that was instigated by the Peeps themselves.

And even the OFS usually found some stooge to invite them in to replace the 'failed' system governments -- for the good of the inhabitants; you understand. Never for something so crass as money, influence, or power. Perish the thought.


The fact that this time the governments really were that corrupt, and the people really will be better off under the new management, doesn't change the fact that the partition of Silesia looks a hell of a lot like many other ugly territorial grabs from the past couple centuries of the Honorverse.


However, as you pointed out, Manticore's track record elsewhere with its neighbors is far different from the bad of days of Haven, or what the OFS does, and that will hopefully reassure its neighbors despite the scary looking precedent of forcibly partitioning Silesia.