Welcome to recent new member Shannon Foraker!

Shannon, search for "proper reading order", for ideas from 2018.
Cheers,

Shannon_Foraker wrote:snip

When will we get our next scene with Shannon at Bolthole (does ART have some, or is it just UH)?

I don't remember any discussions about when Shannon went to Bolthole.
Any help from the "Experts"?
It's like, suddenly she is there and pumping out responses to the Manty attacks.

B.D.Harrington

sonex wrote:

Shannon_Foraker wrote:snip

When will we get our next scene with Shannon at Bolthole (does ART have some, or is it just UH)?

I don't remember any discussions about when Shannon went to Bolthole.
Any help from the "Experts"?
It's like, suddenly she is there and pumping out responses to the Manty attacks.

B.D.Harrington

It happened off-screen; and surrounding evidence implies it was shortly after the ceasefire and fall of the Saint Just government.

More specifically her assignment would seem to happen at some point after March 1916 PD when the new President Eloise Pritchart and Admiral Thomas Theisman visit Sanctuary/Refuge/Bolthole (in the novella Dark Fall); but well before War of Honor [circa 1920 PD ] (where Ch2 mentions Bolthole's secret yards and that Theisman "sent Shannon Foraker out to take charge of them")

Though it isn't until the next book, At All Costs, that she's listed in the Character List as "Foraker, Vice Admiral Shannon, RHN—CO, Bolthole"

Narrowing it down further -- in discussions with Theisman in War of Honor she implies that she's been there for nearly 4 T-years.

War of Honor wrote:"I sometimes wonder if you really realize all you've managed to accomplish out here, Shannon."
"I think you can safely assume all of us realize that, Sir," she told him dryly. "At least, we all know we've spent the better part of four T-years—some of us over five—more or less in exile while we did it!"

If we accept that implication that'd put her appointment no later than mid to late 1916; so say within 6-8 months of Theisman's coup.

That whole 4 year period is glossed over very quickly in the books, as we pretty much jump from the ceasefire to the tensions that presage a renewal of hostilities.


Oh, and FYI, in WoH we later see that Theisman selected Foraker to command Bolthole based on Lester Tourville's recommendation; which makes sense as Theisman had never actually worked with Shannon

Jonathan_S wrote:

sonex wrote:
I don't remember any discussions about when Shannon went to Bolthole.
Any help from the "Experts"?
It's like, suddenly she is there and pumping out responses to the Manty attacks.

B.D.Harrington

It happened off-screen; and surrounding evidence implies it was shortly after the ceasefire and fall of the Saint Just government.

More specifically her assignment would seem to happen at some point after March 1916 PD when the new President Eloise Pritchart and Admiral Thomas Theisman visit Sanctuary/Refuge/Bolthole (in the novella Dark Fall); but well before War of Honor [circa 1920 PD ] (where Ch2 mentions Bolthole's secret yards and that Theisman "sent Shannon Foraker out to take charge of them")

Though it isn't until the next book, At All Costs, that she's listed in the Character List as "Foraker, Vice Admiral Shannon, RHN—CO, Bolthole"

Narrowing it down further -- in discussions with Theisman in War of Honor she implies that she's been there for nearly 4 T-years.

War of Honor wrote:"I sometimes wonder if you really realize all you've managed to accomplish out here, Shannon."
"I think you can safely assume all of us realize that, Sir," she told him dryly. "At least, we all know we've spent the better part of four T-years—some of us over five—more or less in exile while we did it!"

If we accept that implication that'd put her appointment no later than mid to late 1916; so say within 6-8 months of Theisman's coup.

That whole 4 year period is glossed over very quickly in the books, as we pretty much jump from the ceasefire to the tensions that presage a renewal of hostilities.


Oh, and FYI, in WoH we later see that Theisman selected Foraker to command Bolthole based on Lester Tourville's recommendation; which makes sense as Theisman had never actually worked with Shannon

Thanks, Johnathon_s!

Jonathan_S wrote:Oh, and FYI, in WoH we later see that Theisman selected Foraker to command Bolthole based on Lester Tourville's recommendation; which makes sense as Theisman had never actually worked with Shannon

I remember that. It makes you wonder exactly what kind of amazing magic she cast with her 'puters under Tourville's watchful eye that would make him qualified to make the recommendation to commandeer her for such a prestigious and important position as Bolthole.

I refuse to believe that simply her performance as tac officer alone was enough to showcase that ability.

Think about it. What sort of tac witchery did she conjure up to be able to make that sort of impression. Honor was good, but Honor must have paled in comparison to Foraker.

Foraker reminds me of a female "McGyver."

Jonathan_S wrote:Oh, and FYI, in WoH we later see that Theisman selected Foraker to command Bolthole based on Lester Tourville's recommendation; which makes sense as Theisman had never actually worked with Shannon

cthia wrote:I remember that. It makes you wonder exactly what kind of amazing magic she cast with her 'puters under Tourville's watchful eye that would make him qualified to make the recommendation to commandeer her for such a prestigious and important position as Bolthole.

I refuse to believe that simply her performance as tac officer alone was enough to showcase that ability.

Think about it. What sort of tac witchery did she conjure up to be able to make that sort of impression. Honor was good, but Honor must have paled in comparison to Foraker.

Foraker reminds me of a female "McGyver."

I do not believe that any amount of tactical mastery would qualify her for this position; instead I believe that it was her technical mastery that qualified her, up to and including her "Oops" moment which saved a major force that could support Eloise Pritchart and Thomas Theisman. Such an achievement requires a reward.

tlb wrote:I do not believe that any amount of tactical mastery would qualify her for this position; instead I believe that it was her technical mastery that qualified her, up to and including her "Oops" moment which saved a major force that could support Eloise Pritchart and Thomas Theisman. Such an achievement requires a reward.

You need more than just tactical wizardry. However, knowing that your best technology will likely remain inferior to your enemy's means that your designs have to be developed in symbiotic relationship with tactics to blunt your enemies tech advantage while allowing you to have and deploy advantages of your own (despite the generally inferior tech base)

Which probably means lots and lots of simulated battles with variations on the Republic's new designs; and putting them up against both known Manticoran capabilities and best guesses as to what upgrades they might roll out.


That tactical acumen doesn't have to be a single savant, nor do you necessarily need your tac wizard running Bolthole. But you do need that kind of tactical innovation in a position where the head of Bolthole will listen to their input and ensure that the new doctrine is sound and that the new designs and weapons best conform to that doctrine. Though it can't all be one way from tactics and doctrine to weapons -- something you need to go the other way and adjust tactics and doctrine for what your weapons can do. The wisdom to know which applies in a given situation is what you ultimately need in the leader of Bolthole.

But it would have been all to easy to get someone in charge who simply assumed their job was to make poor knockoffs of 8th fleet as of Operation Buttercup -- trying to directly mirror image them but with less capable technology. Instead of what you really want; which is someone able to figure out how best to counter those capabilities without building a one-trick fleet that can't adapt to new surprises.

Rather than building direct Shrike & Ferret analogs for offensive work Bolthole focused on defensive LACs to blunt their threat. Etc.

Still, having a tac wizard who also loves the tech is probably a good choice. At least as long as she was pragmatic enough, as Shannon was, not to get so caught up in improving things that she never got around to actually building the new fleet.

tlb wrote:I do not believe that any amount of tactical mastery would qualify her for this position; instead I believe that it was her technical mastery that qualified her, up to and including her "Oops" moment which saved a major force that could support Eloise Pritchart and Thomas Theisman. Such an achievement requires a reward.

Jonathan_S wrote:You need more than just tactical wizardry. However, knowing that your best technology will likely remain inferior to your enemy's means that your designs have to be developed in symbiotic relationship with tactics to blunt your enemies tech advantage while allowing you to have and deploy advantages of your own (despite the generally inferior tech base).

I will agree that tactical knowledge is useful, I was simply trying to state that tactical wizardry by itself was insufficient. It is noted in several places that she could get more out of her equipment than was normal. It is the technical wizardry that she displayed, with an added tactical touch; which would have added her to the candidate list. But it was the wizardry of the "Oops" moment that moved her to the head of the list and basically made it imperative that she get that post or something similar as a reward for saving Twelfth Fleet at Lovat.

tlb wrote:I will agree that tactical knowledge is useful, I was simply trying to state that tactical wizardry by itself was insufficient.

And I agree with that.
Tactical knowledge was necessary but not sufficient.

And I argue that tactical wizardry is not necessary in the head of Bolthole (though very useful); but a base level of tactical knowledge probably really is necessary. If for no other reason that to judge whether the tacticians under you are trying to feed you a snow job - and so you can make informed decisions between tactics and design.

Jonathan_S wrote:

tlb wrote:I will agree that tactical knowledge is useful, I was simply trying to state that tactical wizardry by itself was insufficient.

And I agree with that.
Tactical knowledge was necessary but not sufficient.

And I argue that tactical wizardry is not necessary in the head of Bolthole (though very useful); but a base level of tactical knowledge probably really is necessary. If for no other reason that to judge whether the tacticians under you are trying to feed you a snow job - and so you can make informed decisions between tactics and design.

I agree, but, then, how did Tourville get the full impression of her, did he have prior knowledge of her before she was assigned to him?