Query; The Young court martial and Hemphill

cthia wrote:I always wondered just how arrogant Hemphill actually was. Or was everyone's characterization of her actually rantings of idiots born out of the lack of understanding her purpose. It was the same misconception, I suspect, which plagued Shannon.

At any rate, Honor must have felt the entire universe was "misaligning" itself with the likes of Young.

Maybe it's more correct to say that she didn't suffer fools, so her attitude would lead others to think she was arrogant. The problem is that her perception of who was a fool was anyone who disagreed with her. And even if she were willing to teach, she was unable to until 1910 or thereabouts.

Jonathon_S as d

Sometimes her doctrinal desires for the navy seem, with the benefit of hindsight, to have been less than entirely correct.

Attritional warfare is all well and good until you find yourself the one being attrited. Like charging across No-Mans Land in the face of Maxim and Lewis machine guns, no nation can afford to build and man units whose sole purpose is to be destroyed for some incremental gain. Yes, destroyers are expendable to protect a capital ship, but (almost) no one made a habit of charging a battleship with destroyers Yes, Taffy 3, and the Polish destroyer (ORP Piorun) that charged Bismarck, while signaling "I am a Pole", but they are notable because that are exceptions.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:

cthia wrote:I always wondered just how arrogant Hemphill actually was. Or was everyone's characterization of her actually rantings of idiots born out of the lack of understanding her purpose. It was the same misconception, I suspect, which plagued Shannon.

At any rate, Honor must have felt the entire universe was "misaligning" itself with the likes of Young.

Maybe it's more correct to say that she didn't suffer fools, so her attitude would lead others to think she was arrogant. The problem is that her perception of who was a fool was anyone who disagreed with her. And even if she were willing to teach, she was unable to until 1910 or thereabouts.

There are at least a couple of characters in the HV to whom I've attached that moniker. Perhaps Honor leads the pack. But Aivers Terekov AND Hexapuma gain easy admittance. But yes, I'd agree Sonja gets an invite too.

cthia wrote:There are at least a couple of characters in the HV to whom I've attached that moniker. Perhaps Honor leads the pack. But Aivers Terekov AND Hexapuma gain easy admittance. But yes, I'd agree Sonja gets an invite too.

I wouldn't apply it to Terekhov. Could you expand on why you think it would? What actions of his did lead you to that?

Honor... maybe. She's far more willing to teach than Sonja, though. Actually, I wouldn't say she "doesn't suffer fools" the same way I would for Sonja. So maybe our issue here is the interpretation of the expression and, as a non-native speaker, I might have got it wrong. I meant to say Sonja thinks "fools" are beneath her and therefore not worthy of her attention. She won't spend time debating them or teaching them either. She'll dismiss their opinions as "moo points" (a cow's opinion, it has no value). Honor, on the other hand, won't accept ignorance but she'll redress it: she will teach and will take considerable time doing so, especially if she sees potential. That would be the difference between the two: one assumes you're a fool until proven otherwise (or especially if you've said foolish things, where "foolish" is her entirely subjective opinion), the other assumes you're competent and may need guidance.

While she was under Admiral Adcock in Project Gram and working with the Crown Prince Roger, she wouldn't have been in a position of leadership, so this instinct of hers would have been in check. The team would have had the opportunity to prove itself in her eyes by the time she assumed control of the WDB. Everyone else, though... watch out!

ThinksMarkedly wrote:

cthia wrote:There are at least a couple of characters in the HV to whom I've attached that moniker. Perhaps Honor leads the pack. But Aivers Terekov AND Hexapuma gain easy admittance. But yes, I'd agree Sonja gets an invite too.

I wouldn't apply it to Terekhov. Could you expand on why you think it would? What actions of his did lead you to that?

Honor... maybe. She's far more willing to teach than Sonja, though. Actually, I wouldn't say she "doesn't suffer fools" the same way I would for Sonja. So maybe our issue here is the interpretation of the expression and, as a non-native speaker, I might have got it wrong. I meant to say Sonja thinks "fools" are beneath her and therefore not worthy of her attention. She won't spend time debating them or teaching them either. She'll dismiss their opinions as "moo points" (a cow's opinion, it has no value). Honor, on the other hand, won't accept ignorance but she'll redress it: she will teach and will take considerable time doing so, especially if she sees potential. That would be the difference between the two: one assumes you're a fool until proven otherwise (or especially if you've said foolish things, where "foolish" is her entirely subjective opinion), the other assumes you're competent and may need guidance.

While she was under Admiral Adcock in Project Gram and working with the Crown Prince Roger, she wouldn't have been in a position of leadership, so this instinct of hers would have been in check. The team would have had the opportunity to prove itself in her eyes by the time she assumed control of the WDB. Everyone else, though... watch out!

You mean it isn't obvious??? As an exercise, anyone care to lend a hand here?

ThinksMarkedly wrote:

cthia wrote:There are at least a couple of characters in the HV to whom I've attached that moniker. Perhaps Honor leads the pack. But Aivers Terekov AND Hexapuma gain easy admittance. But yes, I'd agree Sonja gets an invite too.

I wouldn't apply it to Terekhov. Could you expand on why you think it would? What actions of his did lead you to that?

Given that Aivars Terekhov spent 28 years before the first war as a RN reservist in a diplomatic career, serving with the Foreign Office, I'm pretty sure his job literally involved suffering fools with every outward appearance of gladness.



Though he certainly didn't suffer Brigadier Yucel's particular foolishness gladly.

“Why is it that people like you always think you’re more ruthless than people like me?”
—Commodore Sir Aivars Terekhov, Royal Manticoran Navy

But that's hardly how he treats all foolishness - you have to be an extra special kind of idiot to get that treatment from him)

ThinksMarkedly wrote:

cthia wrote:There are at least a couple of characters in the HV to whom I've attached that moniker. Perhaps Honor leads the pack. But Aivers Terekov AND Hexapuma gain easy admittance. But yes, I'd agree Sonja gets an invite too.

I wouldn't apply it to Terekhov. Could you expand on why you think it would? What actions of his did lead you to that?

Jonathan_S wrote:Given that Aivars Terekhov spent 28 years before the first war as a RN reservist in a diplomatic career, serving with the Foreign Office, I'm pretty sure his job literally involved suffering fools with every outward appearance of gladness.



Though he certainly didn't suffer Brigadier Yucel's particular foolishness gladly.

“Why is it that people like you always think you’re more ruthless than people like me?”
—Commodore Sir Aivars Terekhov, Royal Manticoran Navy

But that's hardly how he treats all foolishness - you have to be an extra special kind of idiot to get that treatment from him)

Ditto! Well that didn't take long. That's the quote I was looking for! Along with The Battle of Monica. However, I never said having an overabundance of patience had anything to do with suffering fools.

Honor didn't suffer fools either. In "Flag In Exile" Theisman realized Honor was bluffing when he reversed course. It was the fact that she knew that he knew that she didn't suffer fools which made Theisman choose another day to die. He could have pressed the issue with the People's Commissioner. But, he was no fool and his momma didn't raise no idJuts. LOL

She also proved she didn't suffer fools when she slapped the G(P)A out of Houseman. Her mission was to secure an Alliance. A GA. So she slapped the GPA out of the learned Houseman. His education was getting in the way. LOL

Honor was always proving she didn't suffer fools. Huh Pavel?

Oh, and there is absolutely nothing about the moniker The Nasty Kitty which might lead one to believe it suffers fools either. LOL

.

cthia wrote:
(SNIP of stuff)

Honor didn't suffer fools either. In "Field of Dishonor" Tourville realized Honor was bluffing when he reversed course. It was the fact that she knew that he knew that she didn't suffer fools which made Tourville choose another day to die. He could have pressed the issue with the People's Commissioner. But, he was no fool and his momma didn't raise no idJuts. LOL

(snip)

Ahem, that action was in _Flag in Exile_ (the 5th book, _FoD_ is the 4th) and it was Theisman who declined to call Honor's bluff.

Robert_A_Woodward wrote:

cthia wrote:
(SNIP of stuff)

Honor didn't suffer fools either. In "Field of Dishonor" Tourville realized Honor was bluffing when he reversed course. It was the fact that she knew that he knew that she didn't suffer fools which made Tourville choose another day to die. He could have pressed the issue with the People's Commissioner. But, he was no fool and his momma didn't raise no idJuts. LOL

(snip)

Ahem, that action was in _Flag in Exile_ (the 5th book, _FoD_ is the 4th) and it was Theisman who declined to call Honor's bluff.

Thanks, I knew I should have made sure. I'll go back and edit it.

Fox2! wrote:

Jonathon_S as d

Sometimes her doctrinal desires for the navy seem, with the benefit of hindsight, to have been less than entirely correct.

Attritional warfare is all well and good until you find yourself the one being attrited. Like charging across No-Mans Land in the face of Maxim and Lewis machine guns, no nation can afford to build and man units whose sole purpose is to be destroyed for some incremental gain. Yes, destroyers are expendable to protect a capital ship, but (almost) no one made a habit of charging a battleship with destroyers Yes, Taffy 3, and the Polish destroyer (ORP Piorun) that charged Bismarck, while signaling "I am a Pole", but they are notable because that are exceptions.

Tatty 3 was a sacrifice to buy time for the escort carriers to escape. After the carriers launched anything with wings and loaded with what was available. They turned to head for rain squall to hide.