The Two General's Problem

Calling off a two-prong attack is subject to The Two Generals' Problem as well. In fact, a failed messenger in this case could be disastrous to the one prong that attacks without backup.

penny wrote:Calling off a two-prong attack is subject to The Two Generals' Problem as well. In fact, a failed messenger in this case could be disastrous to the one prong that attacks without backup.

Yes, the Two Generals' Problem is any variation on the problem of one general attacking without the proper coordination/cooperation from the other.

As a computer communication problem, it was shown to be unsolvable (according to Wikipedia).

tlb wrote:

penny wrote:Calling off a two-prong attack is subject to The Two Generals' Problem as well. In fact, a failed messenger in this case could be disastrous to the one prong that attacks without backup.

Yes, the Two Generals' Problem is any variation on the problem of one general attacking without the proper coordination/cooperation from the other.

As a computer communication problem, it was shown to be unsolvable (according to Wikipedia).

Indeed. That is what this thread is about. The MAN has solved the problem by changing the variables.

Apparently like Captain Kirk the MA doesn’t believe in a no win scenario. Reminds me of the Kobayashi Maru test. Kirk is the only cadet who beat the test by reprogramming the simulator to change the variables. Similarly, the MA changed the variables by developing the streak drive.

penny wrote:Indeed. That is what this thread is about. The MAN has solved the problem by changing the variables.

-- skip --

Similarly, the MA changed the variables by developing the streak drive.

Whether or not the streak drive solves communication problems, that still leaves the computer communication problem as unsolved. At best; being able to travel faster lessens problems, without making them go away entirely. It is still the case that a courier can can suffer delays, including capture and breakdown.

tlb wrote:

penny wrote:Indeed. That is what this thread is about. The MAN has solved the problem by changing the variables.

-- skip --

Similarly, the MA changed the variables by developing the streak drive.

Whether or not the streak drive solves communication problems, that still leaves the computer communication problem as unsolved. At best; being able to travel faster lessens problems, without making them go away entirely. It is still the case that a courier can can suffer delays, including capture and breakdown.

You’re missing the point. The faster speed is irrelevant up against having exclusive access to the iota and kappa walls; where they essentially shut their problems out and literally leave them behind.


P.S. As a result, the equation in the computer is no longer the same problem.

penny wrote:You’re missing the point. The faster speed is irrelevant up against having exclusive access to the iota and kappa walls; where they essentially shut their problems out and literally leave them behind.

First: the days of exclusive access will soon be over. Second: in order to get to those upper bands they still have to go through normal space and the lower bands, which are open to all. Third: breakdowns still happen and as a relatively new piece of equipment, it may not even be known what the usage limits are.

tlb wrote:

penny wrote:You’re missing the point. The faster speed is irrelevant up against having exclusive access to the iota and kappa walls; where they essentially shut their problems out and literally leave them behind.

First: the days of exclusive access will soon be over. Second: in order to get to those upper bands they still have to go through normal space and the lower bands, which are open to all. Third: breakdowns still happen and as a relatively new piece of equipment, it may not even be known what the usage limits are.

The statement and the statement inside the statement is not a given; that it will be over. Or that it will be over soon.

penny wrote:You’re missing the point. The faster speed is irrelevant up against having exclusive access to the iota and kappa walls; where they essentially shut their problems out and literally leave them behind.

tlb wrote:First: the days of exclusive access will soon be over. Second: in order to get to those upper bands they still have to go through normal space and the lower bands, which are open to all. Third: breakdowns still happen and as a relatively new piece of equipment, it may not even be known what the usage limits are.

penny wrote:The statement and the statement inside the statement is not a given; that it will be over. Or that it will be over soon.

Even if that were true, which I doubt given the shipyards at Galton and Herlander Simões' expertise; that still leaves the other two points of failure. A courier has go up and come down the hyperspace bands in order to deliver a message. Also there is always mean time between failure, particularly on a device where they had to use brute force to make it work.

tlb wrote:Even if that were true, which I doubt given the shipyards at Galton and Herlander Simões' expertise; that still leaves the other two points of failure. A courier has go up and come down the hyperspace bands in order to deliver a message. Also there is always mean time between failure, particularly on a device where they had to use brute force to make it work.

And even if the streak drive couriers never break down (which is implausible) you still can't avoid the two generals problem entirely because you might have had to send your last courier off on an absolutely critical other mission and then something else comes up where you need to contact the other part(s) of a planned operation. It doesn't mater how reliable a ship is if it's away doing something else.

Plus, even with faster hyper travel you still eventually reach the point where there's insufficient time before the start of a disjoint mission to send a message and get confirmation back it was received (so you know the other formation got and agreed to your last minute change); and then you reach the point where now insufficient time for any message from you to reach them before they're scheduled to kick of their side (so better hope no surprise comes up then which prevents you from carrying out your half of the plan as scheduled after that point; because you physically can no longer inform the other side you'd be letting them down)

tlb wrote:Even if that were true, which I doubt given the shipyards at Galton and Herlander Simões' expertise; that still leaves the other two points of failure. A courier has go up and come down the hyperspace bands in order to deliver a message. Also there is always mean time between failure, particularly on a device where they had to use brute force to make it work.

Jonathan_S wrote:And even if the streak drive couriers never break down (which is implausible) you still can't avoid the two generals problem entirely because you might have had to send your last courier off on an absolutely critical other mission and then something else comes up where you need to contact the other part(s) of a planned operation. It doesn't mater how reliable a ship is if it's away doing something else.

Plus, even with faster hyper travel you still eventually reach the point where there's insufficient time before the start of a disjoint mission to send a message and get confirmation back it was received (so you know the other formation got and agreed to your last minute change); and then you reach the point where now insufficient time for any message from you to reach them before they're scheduled to kick of their side (so better hope no surprise comes up then which prevents you from carrying out your half of the plan as scheduled after that point; because you physically can no longer inform the other side you'd be letting them down)

And those are the classic failure points in the Two Generals' Problem, which we were erroneously told had magically disappeared due to a faster ship.