How will the manties fare when their tech advantage is gone?

tlb wrote:Their Navy was small, but their merchant marine was one of the largest; so you may be correct about combat experience, but they still have a reserve of people to handle a ship. With the surviving core of officers to train the next generation, what navy (not in the GA) comes close?

locarno24 wrote:Not that it strictly matters, but probably Frontier Fleet.

Yes, they spend a lot of time acting as 'heavies' for OFS, but it's implied they actually act as disavowable privateers on occasion and I would imagine - even if only to protect megacorp investments - actually will hunt pirates if they're in their neck of the woods. It's not a large-scale battle experience but at least in 'sub-battlecruiser' combat experience, Frontier Fleet (or those entities which used to comprise it) are probably pretty high up the tree for reservoirs of institutional experience, and - with SLN ships rather than Manticoran or Andermani - are probably used to confronting pirates without an eyewatering tech advantage, to boot.

Compared to FF, the RMN still has more experience with battles involving ships bigger than a cruiser and has the technology edge for now.

Im thinking that the Malign is going to have its own internal problems that we (the readers) havent considered yet. David spent quite of bit of time chronicling Jack McBrides' brothers trip from Mesa to Mannheim. He and his new girlfriend saw firsthand the ruthless fervor with which the "special" bodyguards insured that none of the ships taking the inner core to Mannheim fell into enemy hands. Remember the alpha lines are smart people and the McBride genome is highly empathic. Eventually word is going to get to Mannheim about what happened on Mesa (to family, friends, colleagues, as well as to innocent bystanders), Beowulf and on old Earth and some of those smart people will be able to add 2+2 and come up with 4. I think that the McBride genome could be a hidden worm at the core of the apple (yes, Im mixing metaphors here: apples & onions).

Also for your consideration is the statement "there is honor among thieves". The idea is that even amongst rogues and miscreants there is a code of conduct. However, "absolute power corrupts absolutely" and the belligerent star nation that no one can find is already convinced of not only their own god-like superiority, but that anything they do is good & right (not even their poop stinks). Reference the Kevin Bacon version of the movie the invisible man where he came to believe that because he could not be seen, he also could not be inhibited nor stopped, so he cast off all restraints! The Detweilders exhibit this characteristic in making a statement by setting off bombs that killed millions of civvies on 3 space stations in Beowulf as an "operation spoilsport", after the Solly strike that they enabled failed in its military objective.... for no discernable political or military advantage, just terrorism!

Perhaps McBride will initiate a 5th column movement that will expose the homicidal insurgent tendencies of the Detweilers and their ilk to come into the consciousness of the Mannheim alliance's populace. This could initiate a civil war, with State Sec or Protectorate type reprisals as the leadership turns its attention to controlling their own population. This would be especially bloody if this happens when the galaxy-at-large is close to finding their nest, or it could be the way that the alliance finds where the onion is currently planted. Looking forward to hearing thoughts on this since, SADLY, its gonna be awhile before a new Honorverse book comes out.

bert953 wrote:Perhaps McBride will initiate a 5th column movement that will expose the homicidal insurgent tendencies of the Detweilers and their ilk to come into the consciousness of the Mannheim alliance's populace. This could initiate a civil war, with State Sec or Protectorate type reprisals as the leadership turns its attention to controlling their own population. This would be especially bloody if this happens when the galaxy-at-large is close to finding their nest, or it could be the way that the alliance finds where the onion is currently planted. Looking forward to hearing thoughts on this since, SADLY, its gonna be awhile before a new Honorverse book comes out.

I am not good at foreseeing what will happen; my brother predicted a war between Manticore and the Solarian League, while I was still guessing what would happen with Haven.

However I will be surprised if that comes about. Certainly the people you mention may be disaffected, however that is far short of trying to foment a revolution. It would have to come from those brought over by Houdini; but those include people that are also the true believers in the "Plan", so recruitment would be very tricky. Another point is that they are a small percentage of the total population of Darius, most of whom have no attachment to Mesa.

The people you mention will have little contact with Mannheim or other members of the Renaissance Factor, but there is no reason to expect anyone in the RF to go along; because they are also true believers who intend to gain the leadership of humanity.

bert953 wrote:Im thinking that the Malign is going to have its own internal problems that we (the readers) havent considered yet. David spent quite of bit of time chronicling Jack McBrides' brothers trip from Mesa to Mannheim. He and his new girlfriend saw firsthand the ruthless fervor with which the "special" bodyguards insured that none of the ships taking the inner core to Mannheim fell into enemy hands. Remember the alpha lines are smart people and the McBride genome is highly empathic. Eventually word is going to get to Mannheim about what happened on Mesa (to family, friends, colleagues, as well as to innocent bystanders), Beowulf and on old Earth and some of those smart people will be able to add 2+2 and come up with 4. I think that the McBride genome could be a hidden worm at the core of the apple (yes, Im mixing metaphors here: apples & onions).

Zach McBride and girlfriend are not in Mannerheim. They are in Darius, which is disconnected from the galactic news. All the information flow is controlled by the Alignment.

They will get some info, in the form of rumours by those who've left Mesa later and have seen more of the Final Flourish. I think he'll believe those rumours, but he'll have a hard time convincing others to do so.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:Zach McBride and girlfriend are not in Mannerheim. They are in Darius, which is disconnected from the galactic news. All the information flow is controlled by the Alignment.

They will get some info, in the form of rumours by those who've left Mesa later and have seen more of the Final Flourish. I think he'll believe those rumours, but he'll have a hard time convincing others to do so.

They are true believers. They may try to overthrow the current guys in charge, but they are believers in the purpose of the MA.

kzt wrote:They are true believers. They may try to overthrow the current guys in charge, but they are believers in the purpose of the MA.

I agree with you, but that doesn't invalidate the point. The MAlign has been such an effective onion that the purpose that the outer layers believe in is sufficiently different from the next inner layer, to the point that the core's motivations (Detweilers) may seem incomprehensible for those in the middle or outer layers.

The point being that Zach McBride may believe in the idea of bettering the galaxy through genetic uplift, but he may not agree with the methods being employed to do so, especially the creation of genetic castes and the need to cause upheaval in order to succeed.

tlb wrote:Compared to FF, the RMN still has more experience with battles involving ships bigger than a cruiser and has the technology edge for now.

Agreed. But the question was 'comes close'. I would contend that Frontier Fleet probably comes the closest of anyone out there.

locarno24 wrote:

tlb wrote:Compared to FF, the RMN still has more experience with battles involving ships bigger than a cruiser and has the technology edge for now.

Agreed. But the question was 'comes close'. I would contend that Frontier Fleet probably comes the closest of anyone out there.

Aside of all the belligerents during either Manticore-Haven war, yes. Don't discount the Andermani because we've barely seen them in the second war and they sat out the first: they've been doing anti-piracy in Silesia for centuries, just like the RMN has.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:
Aside of all the belligerents during either Manticore-Haven war, yes. Don't discount the Andermani because we've barely seen them in the second war and they sat out the first: they've been doing anti-piracy in Silesia for centuries, just like the RMN has.

Consider that the head of the Navy quit when the political leadership wouldn't appease the Andies or reinforce the forces against them. He obviously considered them to be a serious problem.


"Edward, I think we need to seriously consider further reinforcing Sidemore."
"Out of the question!" Janacek snapped, and glowered at Admiral Chakrabarti, wondering just what the First Space Lord had heard about his "interview" with White Haven.
Chakrabarti only looked back at him levelly, and Janacek threw his hands up.
"Just where do you propose we find those reinforcements?" he demanded. "Especially after the note we just sent off to Pritchart? If she and Theisman are stupid enough to break off negotiations after they get it, we're going to need every hull we've got a lot closer to home than Silesia!"
"In that case," Chakrabarti said, "I think we need to draft new instructions for Duchess Harrington."
"What sort of 'new instructions'?" Janacek growled.
"Instructions to give the Andermani whatever the hell they want!" Chakrabarti shot back with highly unusual asperity.
"What?" Janacek stared at him in disbelief.
"I've been rereading Sternhafen's version of what happened in Zoraster," Chakrabarti told him. "It's obvious that it's a total fabrication. And his official rejection of Harrington's offer of the joint investigation is more of the same. In my opinion, the Empire's clearly setting the stage for it to demand major territorial concessions in Silesia. I believe the Emperor is prepared to go so far as risking open conflict with the Star Kingdom in order to get those concessions and that he's using this incident to bludgeon us into acquiescing rather than risk still further escalations in the level of confrontation. In fact, I wouldn't be a bit surprised if the rising tensions between us and the Republic are leading him to deduce—correctly, as it happens—that we're not in a position to reinforce Sidemore."
"But according to everything Francis has been able to dig up, the Andies are still redeploying," Janacek protested.
"With all due respect for Francis," Chakrabarti said in a not particularly respectful tone, "I think he's wrong. Or, rather, I think the Andies are probably a lot further along in their redeployment than he's been assuming. It's the only explanation I can see for the way Sternhafen jumped on this Zoraster Incident. And then there's this entire Hecate affair. I know," he waved a hand in the air. "Francis believes the whole thing was intended as a diversionary effort. Maybe it was, but maybe it wasn't, either. Whatever the Republic might be up to, however, doesn't change the situation where the Andies are concerned. Except, of course, that if Harrington's right, and there is a Havenite fleet screwing around out there, then the threat situation is even worse.
"I reiterate, Edward. In my opinion as First Space Lord, we either have to reinforce Sidemore significantly, or else we have to draft new instructions for the station commander, reducing the scope of what we expect her to do with the forces she has."
"I don't think that's politically possible," Janacek said slowly. "Not right now. Not when we're already in such a delicate position with the Republic. Even if it's not exactly what Theisman has been trying to convince us to do, it would be too great a concession of weakness."
"It would be an admission of reality," Chakrabarti replied crisply.
"No, it's out of the question," Janacek said firmly.
"In that case," Chakrabarti said, "I see no option but to tender my resignation as First Space Lord."