The big problem of late Honorverse

Jonathan_S wrote:But a wedge hit? That'd tear the target to pieces, and even the fairly small wedge of a missile is at least a couple km wide - that's larger than any dimension of an SD. Wedge contact missiles were the most dangerous ship killer until the sidewall was developed - everything else is a weaker compromise; trading off raw destructive ability in order to actually have a chance to work against/through a sidewall. So I'd rate that as a pK near 1 - you'd have to be really unlucky to bring your missile wedge into contact with even an SD in a way that didn't devastate the majority of the target.

Are modern Mark 23 missiles even capable of steering to a wedge kill? I doubt there's a Mark 23-W model that thte RMN produced in case it needed to attack unmoving, undefended targets (though I would never bet against bureaucracy).

However, that's all software. The steering controls are there and I imagine attacking Reserve One was part of the planning from even before GF left the Manticore Binary System. In fact, I do imagine the plan was prepared much earlier, as a contingency plan.

Brigade XO wrote:One laserhead against an unprotected ship is going to be bad news. Even if there is NO fusion plant operating- and power/plazma conduits charged with energy- the energy strikes from a laserhead are going to burn/stab their way through armor and everything else and the secondary effects -with NO ACTIVE damage control and the ship not in GQ state with all that internal sealing and blast doors in place- the damage will propagate in all sorts of directions

Wouldn't you close the blast doors prior to storage? I don't know much about how ships get mothballed (especially in space), but I can see arguments for closing them and arguments for leaving them open. I would close them to avoid any accidental damage from propagating. There are a lot of dangers in space and a ship that isn't inspected very often could see a lot of damage propagation before anyone noticed. If there's any atmosphere aboard, closing the blast doors would also prevent venting of the whole ship. Another aspect would be of security: it prevents robbers from going to far even if they get aboard.

Against those arguments is that the blast doors could become stuck if they're left in closed position for too long. That would mean maintenance crews working on the ship would be forced to cut through. Moreover, on reactivation, you may find that you have to do a lot of damage to even get through the ship spaces. Ships have regular hatches that should be closed to prevent atmospheric venting and to contain invaders, but are much easier to cut through, with less damage, if they become wedged.

How much of a SLN SD that has just had that much damage and NO DAMAGE CONTROL post hits is going to be usable for more than feeder stock to a smelter?

You mean the obsolete SDs that were no more than deathtraps? The SDs that no one was working on because they couldn't survive an engagement? The SDs the SLN was going to need to dismantle and replace anyway? You could consider that the GF did the SLN a favour by removing the discussion from politicians about what to do with the obsolete SDs: they were only good for scrap metal and now they are scrap metal.

If you can catch them before they fall into Jupiter.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:

Jonathan_S wrote:But a wedge hit? That'd tear the target to pieces, and even the fairly small wedge of a missile is at least a couple km wide - that's larger than any dimension of an SD. Wedge contact missiles were the most dangerous ship killer until the sidewall was developed - everything else is a weaker compromise; trading off raw destructive ability in order to actually have a chance to work against/through a sidewall. So I'd rate that as a pK near 1 - you'd have to be really unlucky to bring your missile wedge into contact with even an SD in a way that didn't devastate the majority of the target.

Are modern Mark 23 missiles even capable of steering to a wedge kill? I doubt there's a Mark 23-W model that thte RMN produced in case it needed to attack unmoving, undefended targets (though I would never bet against bureaucracy).

However, that's all software. The steering controls are there and I imagine attacking Reserve One was part of the planning from even before GF left the Manticore Binary System. In fact, I do imagine the plan was prepared much earlier, as a contingency plan.

we saw it in SoV - remember "barricade"?

Theemile wrote:

ThinksMarkedly wrote:However, that's all software. The steering controls are there and I imagine attacking Reserve One was part of the planning from even before GF left the Manticore Binary System. In fact, I do imagine the plan was prepared much earlier, as a contingency plan.

we saw it in SoV - remember "barricade"?

Indeed. Harkness hacking the steering computers only proves it's all just software.

ThinksMarkedly wrote:Are modern Mark 23 missiles even capable of steering to a wedge kill? I doubt there's a Mark 23-W model that thte RMN produced in case it needed to attack unmoving, undefended targets (though I would never bet against bureaucracy).

Probably, as missiles are sometimes used against things like space stations.

--snipping--

Theemile wrote:we saw it in SoV - remember "barricade"?

As you remember, most of us don't like barricade, though I've decided to give RFC the benefit of the doubt and agree that an active impeller going by something as small as an oncoming but ballistic missile would shred it without stopping the active missile. It's his universe, after all.

That's a far cry from a "wedge hit" on an SD -- which would wreck the SD, but the missile doesn't keep going (conservation of momentum still applies). The only way I can figure that would work would be if there were say 4 SD's in some kind of docking slip and the missiles attacked vertically. Problem is, there's no textual evidence to support even that possibility.

That's why the missile count is still way too low.

SharkHunter wrote:--snipping--

Theemile wrote:we saw it in SoV - remember "barricade"?

As you remember, most of us don't like barricade, though I've decided to give RFC the benefit of the doubt and agree that an active impeller going by something as small as an oncoming but ballistic missile would shred it without stopping the active missile. It's his universe, after all.


That's a far cry from a "wedge hit" on an SD -- which would wreck the SD, but the missile doesn't keep going (conservation of momentum still applies). The only way I can figure that would work would be if there were say 4 SD's in some kind of docking slip and the missiles attacked vertically. Problem is, there's no textual evidence to support even that possibility.

We have plenty of examples of wedge vs material destroying the material without being harmful to the unit creating the wedge. If there was conservation of momentum a MDM could kill any ship by shutting down it's own wedge and ramming the enemy wedge.

I have no problem with Barricade killing enemy missiles without harming the missiles doing it. The problem with it is one of geometry.

--snipped--

Loren Pechtel wrote:We have plenty of examples of wedge vs material destroying the material without being harmful to the unit creating the wedge. If there was conservation of momentum a MDM could kill any ship by shutting down it's own wedge and ramming the enemy wedge.

I have no problem with Barricade killing enemy missiles without harming the missiles doing it. The problem with it is one of geometry.

My thought based on the "conservation" aspect is this: let's assume the missile's wedge as a gravity gradient is chewing up the SD into microscopic bits as it passes by, vs. a collision. Millions of tons of matter being damaged on one side of the missile are going to have SOME effect. If the MDM flies perfectly up the middle of that SD, the effect would likely be vertical. Given only takes only microseconds to fly by 3-4 SDs at the near relativistic speeds attained by MDMs. Even the tiniest deflection misses the "down the line" SDs unless the darn things are effectively floating nose to tail because, as we always note... space is big. Thousands of SDs around floating Jupiter are still a fly-speck.

So let's add another version of missing text which would let me buy the low missile count. Let's say after they're destroyed the SLN admiral says. "They targeted the docking bases -- when the reactors let go, we lost the entire reserve." Presumably a bunch of large enough fusion reactors to support the SLN-SDs going critical would have a rather adverse effect on say a minimum 10-12 docked SD(s) at a time, PLUS the remaining manticora MDM targeting the same zones of ships.

Now the missile count actually works. But we need that textev.

David has stated, in regards to flying a missile through a planet or a freighter through a star, that there is a mass limit that the wedge can handle. Past that it implodes.