All those Lacoon 2 WHJs

pappilon wrote:

saber964 wrote:IIRC Manticore has offered generous terms with various governments. IMHO Manticore offers something like this, okay you have a possible WHJ/B. You get 33% the other end gets 33%, we find it, we run it, protect it and get 34% for 50/75/100 years then you and the other end can take over and split it evenly.

I think 34% is rather steep for 4 shifts of JTC and Junction forts, at least after the cost of construction of the forts is defrayed. I was thinking 40-40-20 and separate negotiation over basing. SKM has always been generous in its dealings with allies, unlike OFS' predatory (some would say beggar thy Client) practices.

Maybe some less heavily trafficked WHJs would require a larger cut for management because costs are roughly the same even as traffic is lower. Some busier ones might squeeze out a smaller management cut with the much larger volume making the difference.

True, but I was thinking of things like the cost of basing a few ships at each end plus the expense of actually finding the thing. IIRC the SKM found out about it's own WHJ in the mid 1540's but didn't make first transit until 1585. IIRC the MWJ is 1 LS across roughly 10 LH from the star now how much volume was searched before it was discovered. It's probably like trying to find a grain of rice in the dark on twenty basketball courts.

saber964 wrote:True, but I was thinking of things like the cost of basing a few ships at each end plus the expense of actually finding the thing.

Lacoon isn't finding new wormholes, it's taking control of known wormholes to deny their use to Solarian flagged freighters and the SLN.

IIRC the terms of agreement with Zuckerman are detailed in textev. (aRT?) Those are probably the typical agreement with the local owners.

Weird Harold wrote:

saber964 wrote:True, but I was thinking of things like the cost of basing a few ships at each end plus the expense of actually finding the thing.

Lacoon isn't finding new wormholes, it's taking control of known wormholes to deny their use to Solarian flagged freighters and the SLN.

IIRC the terms of agreement with Zuckerman are detailed in textev. (aRT?) Those are probably the typical agreement with the local owners.

It would probably be different on each WHJ/B depending on local conditions. IIRC Haumptman was going to get 20% of the revenue from the Torch WHB.

pappilon wrote:

saber964 wrote:IIRC Manticore has offered generous terms with various governments. IMHO Manticore offers something like this, okay you have a possible WHJ/B. You get 33% the other end gets 33%, we find it, we run it, protect it and get 34% for 50/75/100 years then you and the other end can take over and split it evenly.

I think 34% is rather steep for 4 shifts of JTC and Junction forts, at least after the cost of construction of the forts is defrayed. I was thinking 40-40-20 and separate negotiation over basing. SKM has always been generous in its dealings with allies, unlike OFS' predatory (some would say beggar thy Client) practices.

Maybe some less heavily trafficked WHJs would require a larger cut for management because costs are roughly the same even as traffic is lower. Some busier ones might squeeze out a smaller management cut with the much larger volume making the difference.

For the most part, why waste money constructing forts?

phillies wrote:
For the most part, why waste money constructing forts?

To not tie up a flight of LACs, a squadron of destroyers or a mixed squadron of destroyers and cruisers of sundry classes defending a WH terminus from an attack by a squadron of FF BCs that may or may not happen.

IIRC a fort is bubble wrapped and can fend off 10 or so RMN SD(p)s. It is a larger habitat and cheaper to operate than a conventional warship.

saber964 wrote:It would probably be different on each WHJ/B depending on local conditions. IIRC Haumptman was going to get 20% of the revenue from the Torch WHB.

Hauptman got basically port management fees to operate the transshipment facilities (Storage awaiting shipping and unloading for local cargo) that spring up around major WHJs which is a commercial transaction beyond the operation and defense of the terminus itself and basing rights for the defenders and Manty naval vessels to resupply when they are in general patrol of an area. Remember Marsh and the fleet basing deal Honor cut with them.

If there are any deals, they are possibly going to be one-offs based on something like what was done with Zunker.
The real trick is what is the situation in the system that nominally is the owner of the wormhole terminus.
Zunker is one end of a bridge. Idaho-both a trading partner via Manticore and the "owner" of the other end of the bridge from which the wormhole was discovered by a Manticore based survey under contract (If I remember right) with Idaho- has a straight deal with a Manticore based company to assist with the wormhole management and fee sharing. Zunker was the benificiary of Manticorian negotiation which gave Zunker (and it's existing government) a sizable % of the fees of the terminus but which also gave OFS a SMALL amount of the net fee income because OFS/FF was going to provide at least military support to the Zunker system BUT OFS wasn't allowed to install a puppet government or local OFS Governor/Manager to run the system. Manticore didn't want to rule or control either Idaho or Zunker. It also wasn't going to let OFS begger Zunker and steal all the income from the terminus. Idaho wasn't particularly threatened by OFS from the outset and probably already had some level of treaty with Manticore- we don't know- and the ownership of the Idaho end of the wormhole would have already been clearly defined by discovery and position realtive to Idaho (and the whole Manticore based survey contract).

At least one of the termini seized in Lacoon II was clearly in the hands of - if not an OFS administrator, then local OFS supported strongman- someone who as clearly on the side of OFS and the League. Manticore probably wouldn't be thrilled about letting OFS/SL getting that back but short of maintaining a RMN force at that terminus and at least sharing admin/fees with the local system, there isn't much they probably can do to effect regime change there. Of course, as the SL breaks up, the local system would get a larger share of fees as Manticore (as presently configured) isn't going to just absorb all of a change in fee split.
OR, they could just say "bugger you" and cut the OFS operative and his system control out of anything that is genereated by Manticore fully operating (and defending) the terminus. That would make terrible propaganda for the SL or MA but it would slam control on one step on a set of wormhole bridges heading to Manticore.

Interesting stuff.

Brigade XO wrote: OR, they could just say "bugger you" and cut the OFS operative and his system control out of anything that is genereated by Manticore fully operating (and defending) the terminus. That would make terrible propaganda for the SL or MA but it would slam control on one step on a set of wormhole bridges heading to Manticore.

Interesting stuff.

That's pretty much the goal of Lacoon II; cut OFS and the SL/Mandarins off from one of their most profitable sources of income. Manticore may have tolerated OFS taking a cut (lion's share) of WHB revenue during peacetime, but Lacoon II is an Act of War against the Solarian League. They're not going to worry about any propaganda the League might generate, as long as the League doesn't garner any funds from fees or moves any cargo through each captured WH Terminus.

Weird Harold wrote:

Brigade XO wrote: OR, they could just say "bugger you" and cut the OFS operative and his system control out of anything that is genereated by Manticore fully operating (and defending) the terminus. That would make terrible propaganda for the SL or MA but it would slam control on one step on a set of wormhole bridges heading to Manticore.

Interesting stuff.

That's pretty much the goal of Lacoon II; cut OFS and the SL/Mandarins off from one of their most profitable sources of income. Manticore may have tolerated OFS taking a cut (lion's share) of WHB revenue during peacetime, but Lacoon II is an Act of War against the Solarian League. They're not going to worry about any propaganda the League might generate, as long as the League doesn't garner any funds from fees or moves any cargo through each captured WH Terminus.

And whatever propaganda there is to gain, the SL has probably garnered it. DRBs violating a treaty they never signed on to in the first place (and we violate with impunity when it suits us.)

Hi Brigade XO,

OFS didn't get even a tiny bit of the WH transit fees, they were allowed influence but only some influence, quite different from their usual control.

The SL/OFS owned WH that the local potentate got 3% of the transit fees, was left in place as the Sag-C squadron wasn't tasked with regime changing, but collecting WH's; that situation may have changed after the WH's were secured, when gaining popular local support becomes more critical.

Of course their mere presence guarding the WH might inspire the locals to rise up, or the OFS stooge to stupidly overreact, and the RMN only has to prevent the FF from interfering, if they do show up.

Which might encourage other GA friendly responses and/or requests from the neighbors.

From the 5 WH termini in the SL in TUoHH [in MTH], with 2 of them being Erewhon and Manticore, with one hyper bridge of over 900 LY then in use; we now have at least a couple dozen [5 rather close to Sol], with perhaps 2-3 dozen more in the verge and beyond, which the RMN presently controls 90% in SoV.

Perhaps by October 1922, the RMN will control all SL hyper bridges, which won't hurt the SEM's income if it gets 33% of 2-3 dozen more hyper bridges, even with their rather smaller traffic, perhaps only an aggregate 1000 transits per day which would still be a very helpful 16% increase in revenue.

Waiting a year for UH is going to be very hard.

L

Brigade XO wrote:If there are any deals, they are possibly going to be one-offs based on something like what was done with Zunker.
The real trick is what is the situation in the system that nominally is the owner of the wormhole terminus.
Zunker is one end of a bridge. Idaho-both a trading partner via Manticore and the "owner" of the other end of the bridge from which the wormhole was discovered by a Manticore based survey under contract (If I remember right) with Idaho- has a straight deal with a Manticore based company to assist with the wormhole management and fee sharing. Zunker was the benificiary of Manticorian negotiation which gave Zunker (and it's existing government) a sizable % of the fees of the terminus but which also gave OFS a SMALL amount of the net fee income because OFS/FF was going to provide at least military support to the Zunker system BUT OFS wasn't allowed to install a puppet government or local OFS Governor/Manager to run the system. Manticore didn't want to rule or control either Idaho or Zunker. It also wasn't going to let OFS begger Zunker and steal all the income from the terminus. Idaho wasn't particularly threatened by OFS from the outset and probably already had some level of treaty with Manticore- we don't know- and the ownership of the Idaho end of the wormhole would have already been clearly defined by discovery and position realtive to Idaho (and the whole Manticore based survey contract).

At least one of the termini seized in Lacoon II was clearly in the hands of - if not an OFS administrator, then local OFS supported strongman- someone who as clearly on the side of OFS and the League. Manticore probably wouldn't be thrilled about letting OFS/SL getting that back but short of maintaining a RMN force at that terminus and at least sharing admin/fees with the local system, there isn't much they probably can do to effect regime change there. Of course, as the SL breaks up, the local system would get a larger share of fees as Manticore (as presently configured) isn't going to just absorb all of a change in fee split.
OR, they could just say "bugger you" and cut the OFS operative and his system control out of anything that is genereated by Manticore fully operating (and defending) the terminus. That would make terrible propaganda for the SL or MA but it would slam control on one step on a set of wormhole bridges heading to Manticore.

Interesting stuff.