R S Pierre

There is a huge difference between upgrades and major breakthroughs. The designs for many of the better planes used in WWII were around before the war but were not really checked out.
The P51 was far better than the Buffalo but in the long run they were not that scientifically better. Yes, they flew longer and better and could fight better but a good mechanic for the early planes could, after a short training period, handle the newer planes.

The jets were a step up. And, yes, there were not that many of them. The OSS worked hard to make construction difficult by destroying certain key factories. The army air force generals were convinced they could withstand any losses. They could have lost us the war.

But just as our bombers were easy targets for the German jets, so would the League's ship be easy for the GA's top ships. At different times, the tech jumps by BOTH sides (let us not forget Shannon and her cinneterre) led to easy victories. Tourville's ships were an easy several generations ahead of what the League had and were no match for Apollo.

Even "dumbed down" versions of planetary defense systems could do huge damage to Solarian ships. Why take back a planet that makes money for one or two corporations when it means you might lose a half dozen ships along the way.

ldwechsler wrote:There is a huge difference between upgrades and major breakthroughs. The designs for many of the better planes used in WWII were around before the war but were not really checked out.
The P51 was far better than the Buffalo but in the long run they were not that scientifically better. Yes, they flew longer and better and could fight better but a good mechanic for the early planes could, after a short training period, handle the newer planes.

The jets were a step up. And, yes, there were not that many of them. The OSS worked hard to make construction difficult by destroying certain key factories. The army air force generals were convinced they could withstand any losses. They could have lost us the war.

But just as our bombers were easy targets for the German jets, so would the League's ship be easy for the GA's top ships. At different times, the tech jumps by BOTH sides (let us not forget Shannon and her cinneterre) led to easy victories. Tourville's ships were an easy several generations ahead of what the League had and were no match for Apollo.

Even "dumbed down" versions of planetary defense systems could do huge damage to Solarian ships. Why take back a planet that makes money for one or two corporations when it means you might lose a half dozen ships along the way.

Also along these lines (WWII developments) is the key technology of radar. Radar was experimented with between WWI and II and ground based stations built in Britain just in time for the Battle of Britain, ground based with tall towers and house sized radar sets mind you.

By mid 1941 radar had matured enough in development to fit into a trailer towable by a truck tractor. And by the middle of the Battle of the Atlantic had reached sizes suitable for aircraft, first heavy bombers like B-24 but in short order small enough to be deployable in single and twin engine night fighters as well as torpedo planes.

Shipboard sets developed along similar lines and weren't quite as size/weight restrictive as airborne units.

Gotta run!

robert132 wrote:Also along these lines (WWII developments) is the key technology of radar. Radar was experimented with between WWI and II and ground based stations built in Britain just in time for the Battle of Britain, ground based with tall towers and house sized radar sets mind you.

By mid 1941 radar had matured enough in development to fit into a trailer towable by a truck tractor. And by the middle of the Battle of the Atlantic had reached sizes suitable for aircraft, first heavy bombers like B-24 but in short order small enough to be deployable in single and twin engine night fighters as well as torpedo planes.

Shipboard sets developed along similar lines and weren't quite as size/weight restrictive as airborne units.

Gotta run!

Another earlier datapoint on your radar timeline, Fairely Swordfish carrier torpedo bombers were being fitted with the first airborne ASV (air to surface vessel) radar by 1941.
One detected a u-boat, at night, and sank in flying from Gibraltar in Dec '41 - and of course ASV famously helped them intercept and torpedo Bismark in May '41.

(Of course improved radar sets were fitted as the war progressed - but aerial radar came surprisingly early).

And I've always liked the Rube Goldberg setup of the USN's Project Cadillac for the first airborne early warning radar. Mount a radar and plan position indicator display to a torpedo bomber, then use a TV camera to broadcast the radar's image back to fighter direction center on the carrier -- which would vector fighters after detected inbounds.



Oh, and on a different application (but somewhat overlapping technology) great breakthroughs were made before and during the war with radio directed blind navigation/bombing. By the end of the war, within the limited range of the British Oboe system I seem to recall their blind bombing raids were significantly more accurate than the US daylight raids and second only to dive bombers working in permissive environments.

Jonathan_S wrote:

robert132 wrote:Also along these lines (WWII developments) is the key technology of radar. Radar was experimented with between WWI and II and ground based stations built in Britain just in time for the Battle of Britain, ground based with tall towers and house sized radar sets mind you.

By mid 1941 radar had matured enough in development to fit into a trailer towable by a truck tractor. And by the middle of the Battle of the Atlantic had reached sizes suitable for aircraft, first heavy bombers like B-24 but in short order small enough to be deployable in single and twin engine night fighters as well as torpedo planes.

Shipboard sets developed along similar lines and weren't quite as size/weight restrictive as airborne units.

Gotta run!

Another earlier datapoint on your radar timeline, Fairely Swordfish carrier torpedo bombers were being fitted with the first airborne ASV (air to surface vessel) radar by 1941.
One detected a u-boat, at night, and sank in flying from Gibraltar in Dec '41 - and of course ASV famously helped them intercept and torpedo Bismark in May '41.

(Of course improved radar sets were fitted as the war progressed - but aerial radar came surprisingly early).

And I've always liked the Rube Goldberg setup of the USN's Project Cadillac for the first airborne early warning radar. Mount a radar and plan position indicator display to a torpedo bomber, then use a TV camera to broadcast the radar's image back to fighter direction center on the carrier -- which would vector fighters after detected inbounds.

Thanks, I entirely forgot about the "Stringbag" mounted sets. That's what I get for responding to a post in a hurry.

"Project Cadillac" is a new one on me, and I thought I was well versed in the technology's history.

Oh, and on a different application (but somewhat overlapping technology) great breakthroughs were made before and during the war with radio directed blind navigation/bombing. By the end of the war, within the limited range of the British Oboe system I seem to recall their blind bombing raids were significantly more accurate than the US daylight raids and second only to dive bombers working in permissive environments.

Left this one out entirely because

1) I was in a hurry, had to be across town in short order, and
2) "Oboe" really didn't fit with my brief reply on radar development even though the application was critical, especially to crews limping "home" in lamed and blinded (navigation wise) aircraft. Excellent point even so.

robert132 wrote:

Jonathan_S wrote:
And I've always liked the Rube Goldberg setup of the USN's Project Cadillac for the first airborne early warning radar. Mount a radar and plan position indicator display to a torpedo bomber, then use a TV camera to broadcast the radar's image back to fighter direction center on the carrier -- which would vector fighters after detected inbounds.

Thanks, I entirely forgot about the "Stringbag" mounted sets. That's what I get for responding to a post in a hurry.

"Project Cadillac" is a new one on me, and I thought I was well versed in the technology's history.

Glad I was able to add to your knowledge base.

I think "Project Cadillac" gets overlooked because it became operational so close to the end of the war, after the USN already had massive air dominance so the upgrade from fighter direction based on air search radars on the carrier to an airborne one just gets glossed over as the historical focus moved from the naval battles to the amphibious assaults.

It probably didn't help that a torpedo bomber with a weird bulge under its belly doesn't look much like the AWACs we're used to; with the huge disk mounted above their fuselage.


But it's still impressive they managed to cram a radar, TV broadcast system (and also a radio repeater) into a single engine carrier plane. (They used the radio repeater to extend the voice radio range of the carrier to they could direct their fighters at the extended ranges the AEW could see)

Jonathan_S wrote:
Glad I was able to add to your knowledge base.

I think "Project Cadillac" gets overlooked because it became operational so close to the end of the war, after the USN already had massive air dominance so the upgrade from fighter direction based on air search radars on the carrier to an airborne one just gets glossed over as the historical focus moved from the naval battles to the amphibious assaults.

It probably didn't help that a torpedo bomber with a weird bulge under its belly doesn't look much like the AWACs we're used to; with the huge disk mounted above their fuselage.


But it's still impressive they managed to cram a radar, TV broadcast system (and also a radio repeater) into a single engine carrier plane. (They used the radio repeater to extend the voice radio range of the carrier to they could direct their fighters at the extended ranges the AEW could see)

It's VERY impressive, especially when you consider the power requirements those older "tube" based sets needed plus the HEAT generated by the aforementioned tubes.

A local businessman here in Virginia Beach owns and runs the Military Air Museum, a fair sized collection of Allied and Axis WWII aircraft most in flying condition. One of his collection is a TBM Avenger torpedo bomber. His is a late war model that never saw combat but is still in the original torpedo plane configuration. Even with the empty bomb/torpedo bay to work with, the work necessary to shoehorn all those early electronics and antenna into that fuselage is amazing, and the Avenger isn't a tiny plane.

The even smaller sets used in F4U(N) Corsair night fighters is even more amazing.