A Long hint

Chenade O'Daley Terekov refers to her affluent family as the O'Daleys and the Longs. Is she perhaps a distant descendant of the great (one day) Travis Uriah Long?

martin wrote:Chenade O'Daley Terekov refers to her affluent family as the O'Daleys and the Longs. Is she perhaps a distant descendant of the great (one day) Travis Uriah Long?

Isn't her brother Lord Winterfell? IIRC that was Travis' brother's title. I wonder if Travis ends up with the Title after all? Perhaps in the next book?

BrightSoul wrote:

martin wrote:Chenade O'Daley Terekov refers to her affluent family as the O'Daleys and the Longs. Is she perhaps a distant descendant of the great (one day) Travis Uriah Long?

Isn't her brother Lord Winterfell? IIRC that was Travis' brother's title. I wonder if Travis ends up with the Title after all? Perhaps in the next book?

She's a cousin of the Duke of Winterfall. However, I will note that the 2nd Baron Winterfall, Gavin Vellacott, was Travis's half-brother and I really doubt that Travis was an heir at all. Of course, with several centuries to play with, there are any number of ways for Sinead to be descended from both.

BrightSoul wrote:

martin wrote:Chenade O'Daley Terekov refers to her affluent family as the O'Daleys and the Longs. Is she perhaps a distant descendant of the great (one day) Travis Uriah Long?

Isn't her brother Lord Winterfell? IIRC that was Travis' brother's title. I wonder if Travis ends up with the Title after all? Perhaps in the next book?

Robert_A_Woodward wrote:She's a cousin of the Duke of Winterfall. However, I will note that the 2nd Baron Winterfall, Gavin Vellacott, was Travis's half-brother and I really doubt that Travis was an heir at all. Of course, with several centuries to play with, there are any number of ways for Sinead to be descended from both.

They are half brothers by the same father, the previous Lord Winterfall. IIRC.

BrightSoul wrote:Chenade O'Daley Terekov refers to her affluent family as the O'Daleys and the Longs. Is she perhaps a distant descendant of the great (one day) Travis Uriah Long?

Robert_A_Woodward wrote:She's a cousin of the Duke of Winterfall. However, I will note that the 2nd Baron Winterfall, Gavin Vellacott, was Travis's half-brother and I really doubt that Travis was an heir at all. Of course, with several centuries to play with, there are any number of ways for Sinead to be descended from both.

They are half brothers by the same father, the previous Lord Winterfall. IIRC.

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Travis Long's half-brother's name is Gavin Vellacot. [P13 ACtD]

Language gets crazy at page 22: "Four years ago Travis had tried to talk to him about his growing isolation from his mother." Which does imply not-Gavin's-mother.

And her ancestor could have married Gavin's inheriting son, grand-son, etc. making it a dubious relation to Travis.

Second possibility: HH's cousin got the original Harrington barony after her "execution" at the hands of State Sec. Upon her resurrection, Elizabeth just gave her a countess-ship. Travis could have been knighted a duke in his own right over his brother's mere barony. Or maybe not, all this lord and lady stuff gets mighty confusing.

Clearly

Without going into the - sometimes obscure - history of the feudal aristocracies, the following list of titles shows the relative ranking found in Europe:

Duke - Duchess
Marquis - Marchioness
Earl - Countess
Baron - Baroness

These, obviously, are the English versions, but they have equivalents in all European languages, and non-European aristocracies are often shoe-horned into the systems as well. Prince/Princess, in the UK, has come to designate a child or grandchild of the Sovereign. Continental usage varies, as does the signification of later inventions like Grand Duke or Archduke.

Because Manticore invented its system out of whole cloth based on an awareness [I hesitate to call it familiarity] with historical examples, it is far more organised and self-consistent than the originals ever were. They've added Grand Duke at the top, and each level apparently corresponds exactly to the layers of the civil administration of the Kingdom - with the peers acting as chief executives for their fiefdoms.

Knighthood is a personal honor, not a peerage - although peers can be awarded knighthoods too - and knighting makes you a knight, nothing else. Peerages are said to be 'Created'.

And, finally [at last! you say ], the original Harrington peerage was the Earldom of Harrington. Elisabeth creating a _second_ Harrington peerage in the Duchy of Harrington would have been a huge slap in the face to the Opposition - much, much bigger than, say, making Willy Alexander a peer in his own right. The Harringtons are probably the only family in the Star Kingdom to hold 2 nominal peerages; the only other family identified as holding 2 are the Alexanders, and their name doesn't appear on either of them.

PS: can anybody recall seeing a reference to a Manticoran Marquis? I'm blanking, and now wonder if they dumped that title as not fitting anywhere useful in the system.

WeirdlyWired wrote:
Travis Long's half-brother's name is Gavin Vellacot. [P13 ACtD]

< snip >

Second possibility: HH's cousin got the original Harrington barony after her "execution" at the hands of State Sec. Upon her resurrection, Elizabeth just gave her a countess-ship. Travis could have been knighted a duke in his own right over his brother's mere barony. Or maybe not, all this lord and lady stuff gets mighty confusing.

Louis R wrote:PS: can anybody recall seeing a reference to a Manticoran Marquis? I'm blanking, and now wonder if they dumped that title as not fitting anywhere useful in the system.

There is one mentioned in the Universe of Honor Harrington, the Marquessate of New Dublin. My guess is that the reason it exists is that someone needed to be a special snowflake as a marquis rather than what their rank would normally be.

Louis R wrote:Clearly

Without going into the - sometimes obscure - history of the feudal aristocracies, the following list of titles shows the relative ranking found in Europe:

Duke - Duchess
Marquis - Marchioness
Earl - Countess
Baron - Baroness

These, obviously, are the English versions, but they have equivalents in all European languages, and non-European aristocracies are often shoe-horned into the systems as well. Prince/Princess, in the UK, has come to designate a child or grandchild of the Sovereign. Continental usage varies, as does the signification of later inventions like Grand Duke or Archduke.

Because Manticore invented its system out of whole cloth based on an awareness [I hesitate to call it familiarity] with historical examples, it is far more organised and self-consistent than the originals ever were. They've added Grand Duke at the top, and each level apparently corresponds exactly to the layers of the civil administration of the Kingdom - with the peers acting as chief executives for their fiefdoms.

Knighthood is a personal honor, not a peerage - although peers can be awarded knighthoods too - and knighting makes you a knight, nothing else. Peerages are said to be 'Created'.

And, finally [at last! you say ], the original Harrington peerage was the Earldom of Harrington. Elisabeth creating a _second_ Harrington peerage in the Duchy of Harrington would have been a huge slap in the face to the Opposition - much, much bigger than, say, making Willy Alexander a peer in his own right. The Harringtons are probably the only family in the Star Kingdom to hold 2 nominal peerages; the only other family identified as holding 2 are the Alexanders, and their name doesn't appear on either of them.

PS: can anybody recall seeing a reference to a Manticoran Marquis? I'm blanking, and now wonder if they dumped that title as not fitting anywhere useful in the system.

WeirdlyWired wrote:
Travis Long's half-brother's name is Gavin Vellacot. [P13 ACtD]

< snip >

Second possibility: HH's cousin got the original Harrington barony after her "execution" at the hands of State Sec. Upon her resurrection, Elizabeth just gave her a countess-ship. Travis could have been knighted a duke in his own right over his brother's mere barony. Or maybe not, all this lord and lady stuff gets mighty confusing.

Actually the Barony of Winterfall could have been elevated over the intervening centuries to a Duchey like Baroness Mournecreek is now Countess Mournecreek. FYI the Earldom of Harrington was inherited by her cousin Devon Harrington who was in turn inherited by his daughter Sarah Harrington