Field of dishonor - why was declairing war so hard?

I have been revisiting Field of dishonor and one thing that really struck me this time through is that the whole declairing war thing doesn't make sense.

In the book war is not declaired for several weeks or months after the battles of Hancock and Yeltsin but when i started looking at the stated reasons the didn't make sense give the time delays in terms of travel time and known political behavior.

In the book the main reasons for delaying the declairation of war are:

* Liberals wanting to have the Committe of public safety declair peace so they can focus on Havenite internal issues.

* Conservatives wanting to remain isolationist.

* Conservatives trying to save Pavel Young from the court martial.

* The new men trying to extract mercenary political advantage for thier vote to declair war.

Of these only the New Men actually makes sense.

The Liberals should not have heard of the chaos inside the PRH for at least 3-4 weeks because of time delay for news from Haven to get to Manticore. Why would they not reluctantly declair war 3-4 weeks earlier when the news of Hancock and yeltsin first reach Manticore?

These arn't border incidets but clear attempts by Haven to reach a decisive military victory over Manticore, why even for Liberals would they not declare war in sorrow as Haven has clearly declaired war on them?

On the same vein why did the isolationist conservitives not declare war as soon as the news of Hankock/Yeltsen arrived? Being isolationis usually requires that if someone attacks you that you kick their ass right back. It does not mean you roll over and play dead. Isolationist USA changed in a heartbeat at Pearl Harbour for exactly this reason.

Finally the attempts to save Young have the same issues, the vote should have been over weeks before the after action reports and the board of enquirey in Hancock can deliver any verdict on Youngs actions and put him forward for court martial. It is clear from the text evidence that there is a several week delay while Admiral parks kicks the peeps boarder forces in the teeth and takes over several Peep bases before he gets back to handle the fallout from the battle at Hancock.

What have I missed that makes these significant delays in declairing war make sense? There was no obvious reason for them not to declair war after the first news arrives. What made them hold off on the vote for the several weeks for the news of the havenite revolution or the proposed court martial to arrive and muddy the waters? It almost reads like RFC momentarily forgot to allow for news travel time and had the manty opposition acting like we like in a synchronous time environment like 21st centary earth.

I think you nailed it with time delays.
Why rush to an offensive footing when you know that there is a huge time loop, that the navy will be repositioning defensively any way, and that you can hopefully get a huge political boon from gambling.

Basically, knowing about the time factor makes you think that you can always take the time to work anything for political advantage.

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Silverwall wrote:In the book the main reasons for delaying the declaration of war are:...

Most of the Opposition stance, of whatever flavor and nominal reasoning, boils down to, "We can't give War Powers to the Duke of Cromarty!"

Almost none of the Opposition really cares about declaring war unless it puts them in power; their first priority is opposing the Cromarty Centrist government even if it means allowing Haven to conquer Manticore in the process.

Weird Harold wrote:

Silverwall wrote:In the book the main reasons for delaying the declaration of war are:...

Most of the Opposition stance, of whatever flavor and nominal reasoning, boils down to, "We can't give War Powers to the Duke of Cromarty!"

Almost none of the Opposition really cares about declaring war unless it puts them in power; their first priority is opposing the Cromarty Centrist government even if it means allowing Haven to conquer Manticore in the process.

maybe, but why do the conservatives (part of the cormarty gvt in the lead up to war) decide to split with him on the issue before the trial of Young comes to light?

It should have been easy to persuade them to vote for the war by giving them a couple more cabinet slots if necessary when the first word of the supprise attacks made with no decleration of war by Haven roll in. At this point they have no axe to grind with cromarty and they had obviously agreed to having forces in those areas or they would have already been in opposition.

To me this would be like congress and the senate refusing FDR's declaration of war after Pearl Harbor.

I can think of no real life legislative body that would simply sit there and take an attack on the scale that Haven made and not immediatly declare war no matter how much they hated each other internally. Even the Fuzzy headed liberals and head in the sand conservatives are manty patriots and in the absence of any compelling grudges or indications of Havenite collapse why did they find declaring war so hard? Did Cromarty screw up by not immediatly putting war to the vote when anger is at it's height just after the news arrives. History shows that that sort of anger makes it trivial to get a declaraion of war out of any legislative group.

Silverwall wrote:maybe, but why do the conservatives (part of the cormarty gvt in the lead up to war) decide to split with him on the issue before the trial of Young comes to light?

News of Young's arrest would have reached Manticore at the same time as news of the attack on Hancock. At that point, the "North Hollow Files" started dictating Conservative Association policy.

Weird Harold wrote:

Silverwall wrote:In the book the main reasons for delaying the declaration of war are:...

Most of the Opposition stance, of whatever flavor and nominal reasoning, boils down to, "We can't give War Powers to the Duke of Cromarty!"

Almost none of the Opposition really cares about declaring war unless it puts them in power; their first priority is opposing the Cromarty Centrist government even if it means allowing Haven to conquer Manticore in the process.

There's also a hint of "We've opposed the preparations for war all along; if war actually breaks out, we've been proven to be wrong the entire time. If we prevent war, we prove ourselves to be right!"

As for the Conservatives - they did support the war in the end. Their initial resistance was due to North Hollow's files on Baron High Ridge himself(when a party is infamous for disciplined voting, you only need to persuade the leader), plus most of the party's senior hierarchy. And a few other Lords/Ladies in other parties, no doubt.

Silverwall wrote:maybe, but why do the conservatives (part of the cormarty gvt in the lead up to war) decide to split with him on the issue before the trial of Young comes to light?

It should have been easy to persuade them to vote for the war by giving them a couple more cabinet slots if necessary when the first word of the supprise attacks made with no decleration of war by Haven roll in. At this point they have no axe to grind with cromarty and they had obviously agreed to having forces in those areas or they would have already been in opposition.

To me this would be like congress and the senate refusing FDR's declaration of war after Pearl Harbor.

I haven't looked at the timings precisely, but IIRC, Admiral Rollins attacked Hancock Station earlier than the PRH's plan called for him to. So much earlier, in fact, that reinforcements intended to support him arrived after Parks had routed Rollins' force, captured their staging base and gone back to Hancock.

So although Yeltsin was far closer than Hancock, news from First Hancock could have gotten home first. I'd bet the farm that Young did everything he could to slip a message to daddy aboard the first vessel that went to Manticore.

Pavel Young tell his father he'd screwed up? Not likely.

But the old lord would have had someone watching Pavel, or in the navy watching the dispatches for news of him.

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Annachie wrote:Pavel Young tell his father he'd screwed up? Not likely.

But the old lord would have had someone watching Pavel, or in the navy watching the dispatches for news of him.

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Young was called by his father Dimitri Young a gutless fool who he should have never allowed to join the Navy in the first place.

Silverwall wrote:I have been revisiting Field of dishonor and one thing that really struck me this time through is that the whole declairing war thing doesn't make sense.

In the book war is not declaired for several weeks or months after the battles of Hancock and Yeltsin but when i started looking at the stated reasons the didn't make sense give the time delays in terms of travel time and known political behavior.

In the book the main reasons for delaying the declairation of war are:

* Liberals wanting to have the Committe of public safety declair peace so they can focus on Havenite internal issues.

* Conservatives wanting to remain isolationist.

* Conservatives trying to save Pavel Young from the court martial.

* The new men trying to extract mercenary political advantage for thier vote to declair war.

Of these only the New Men actually makes sense.

The Liberals should not have heard of the chaos inside the PRH for at least 3-4 weeks because of time delay for news from Haven to get to Manticore. Why would they not reluctantly declair war 3-4 weeks earlier when the news of Hancock and yeltsin first reach Manticore?

These arn't border incidets but clear attempts by Haven to reach a decisive military victory over Manticore, why even for Liberals would they not declare war in sorrow as Haven has clearly declaired war on them?

On the same vein why did the isolationist conservitives not declare war as soon as the news of Hankock/Yeltsen arrived? Being isolationis usually requires that if someone attacks you that you kick their ass right back. It does not mean you roll over and play dead. Isolationist USA changed in a heartbeat at Pearl Harbour for exactly this reason.

Finally the attempts to save Young have the same issues, the vote should have been over weeks before the after action reports and the board of enquirey in Hancock can deliver any verdict on Youngs actions and put him forward for court martial. It is clear from the text evidence that there is a several week delay while Admiral parks kicks the peeps boarder forces in the teeth and takes over several Peep bases before he gets back to handle the fallout from the battle at Hancock.

What have I missed that makes these significant delays in declairing war make sense? There was no obvious reason for them not to declair war after the first news arrives. What made them hold off on the vote for the several weeks for the news of the havenite revolution or the proposed court martial to arrive and muddy the waters? It almost reads like RFC momentarily forgot to allow for news travel time and had the manty opposition acting like we like in a synchronous time environment like 21st centary earth.

It really depends on the circumstance. Look at the U.S. pre Pearl Harbor the U.S. was very isolationist, but that changed almost overnight because of the attack. Also look at the WWI era prior to U.S. involvement. Some were advocating for U.S. action as early as 1915. But it took things like the Lusatania and the Zimmermann telegram. The Zimmermann telegram was intercepted in January 1917 but the U.S. didn't declare war until April. Also by most estimates the U.S. would have wound up entering WWII by late 42 or early 43 if Japan hadn't attacked Pearl Harbor from incidents like the torpdoing of the USS Reuben James and USS Kearny or the bombing of USS Panay.

Annachie wrote:Pavel Young tell his father he'd screwed up? Not likely.

But the old lord would have had someone watching Pavel, or in the navy watching the dispatches for news of him.

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Yeah, that could work equally. I figure the first ship(textev is that Parks had already sent quite a few damaged ships back before he sent Nike) that got back to Manticore would have unleashed rumours of a battle at Hancock, even if it wasn't carrying Parks' official reports(one of the minelayers evacuating the base, for example).

Old Lord North Hollow knew his heir was assigned to Hancock. He would have checked. All he'd need to see or hear about would be Warlock's breaking off, then one com call to Baron High Ridge later...