Extended Range Fusion Missile

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Extended Range Fusion Missile
by Lord Skimper » Sun Sep 27, 2015 10:42 am
Lord Skimper Vice Admiral Posts: 1736 Joined: Wed Aug 07, 2013 12:49 am Location: Calgary, Nova, Gryphon.	Could a single stage Extended range fusion missile be made? Just use a larger bottle either to make it fit into smaller tubes or make more fit into current Mk16 tubes? The Roland could extra number of missiles as could the rest of the smaller Mk16 equipped ships. Given the size of each stage of a Fusion Missile, couldn't a fusion bottle for it be made two or three times bigger? Could a fusion missile just carry two or three bottles, without stages? ________________________________________ Just don't ask what is in the protein bars.
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by Lord Skimper » Sun Sep 27, 2015 10:42 am

Posts: 1736
Joined: Wed Aug 07, 2013 12:49 am
Location: Calgary, Nova, Gryphon.

Could a single stage Extended range fusion missile be made? Just use a larger bottle either to make it fit into smaller tubes or make more fit into current Mk16 tubes? The Roland could extra number of missiles as could the rest of the smaller Mk16 equipped ships. Given the size of each stage of a Fusion Missile, couldn't a fusion bottle for it be made two or three times bigger? Could a fusion missile just carry two or three bottles, without stages?

________________________________________
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Re: Extended Range Fusion Missile
by Jonathan_S » Sun Sep 27, 2015 10:52 am
Jonathan_S Fleet Admiral Posts: 8796 Joined: Fri Jun 24, 2011 2:01 pm Location: Virginia, USA	Lord Skimper wrote:Could a single stage Extended range fusion missile be made? Just use a larger bottle either to make it fit into smaller tubes or make more fit into current Mk16 tubes? The Roland could extra number of missiles as could the rest of the smaller Mk16 equipped ships. Given the size of each stage of a Fusion Missile, couldn't a fusion bottle for it be made two or three times bigger? Could a fusion missile just carry two or three bottles, without stages? Yes, it could but it's not really worth it. Even in a 3-drive MDM there is a single fusion bottle, that runs the entire time - but you have 3 drives because the missile drive nodes also have a limited operating life so they burn out even though the missile still has power. The range of a single-drive ERM is dictated by the number of seconds it's single drive can last before burning out - and the best we've seen to date is (IIRC) about 16 million km [half the continuous powered range of a Mk16 DDM]. It doesn't mater if the missile has power for another hour, it can't accelerate any further because it's drive nodes are burned out; so it's wedge is gone. Now there's no reason you couldn't still change the power source for the ERM to a microfusion plant. However the tradeoff point where the microfusion plant + fuel, for a give operating lifetime, takes up less space than capacitors appears to be around 5-6 minutes. (Longer than the even a ERM drive's operating life). So a fusion powered ERM would be larger than a capactor powered ERM, yet have no advantage in range. But making it fusion powered would slow down your launch times, so you could fire less salvos per minutes. Now you could have more power budget for ECM but overall the RMN has decided that microfusion isn't worth it unless it results in a smaller missile -- which is why they haven't built microfusion ERMs.
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Re: Extended Range Fusion Missile

by Jonathan_S » Sun Sep 27, 2015 10:52 am

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Lord Skimper wrote:Could a single stage Extended range fusion missile be made? Just use a larger bottle either to make it fit into smaller tubes or make more fit into current Mk16 tubes? The Roland could extra number of missiles as could the rest of the smaller Mk16 equipped ships. Given the size of each stage of a Fusion Missile, couldn't a fusion bottle for it be made two or three times bigger? Could a fusion missile just carry two or three bottles, without stages?

Yes, it could but it's not really worth it.

Even in a 3-drive MDM there is a single fusion bottle, that runs the entire time - but you have 3 drives because the missile drive nodes also have a limited operating life so they burn out even though the missile still has power.

The range of a single-drive ERM is dictated by the number of seconds it's single drive can last before burning out - and the best we've seen to date is (IIRC) about 16 million km [half the continuous powered range of a Mk16 DDM]. It doesn't mater if the missile has power for another hour, it can't accelerate any further because it's drive nodes are burned out; so it's wedge is gone.

Now there's no reason you couldn't still change the power source for the ERM to a microfusion plant. However the tradeoff point where the microfusion plant + fuel, for a give operating lifetime, takes up less space than capacitors appears to be around 5-6 minutes. (Longer than the even a ERM drive's operating life).
So a fusion powered ERM would be larger than a capactor powered ERM, yet have no advantage in range. But making it fusion powered would slow down your launch times, so you could fire less salvos per minutes. Now you could have more power budget for ECM but overall the RMN has decided that microfusion isn't worth it unless it results in a smaller missile -- which is why they haven't built microfusion ERMs.

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Re: Extended Range Fusion Missile
by SWM » Sun Sep 27, 2015 11:10 am
SWM Fleet Admiral Posts: 5928 Joined: Mon Jan 11, 2010 4:00 pm Location: U.S. east coast	The size of the fusion bottle is not what determines the range of a missile. It is the design of the impeller rings. The impeller rings burn out; that's what determines the range of a microfusion missile. Last edited by SWM on Sun Sep 27, 2015 11:14 am, edited 3 times in total. -------------------------------------------- Librarian: The Original Search Engine
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Re: Extended Range Fusion Missile

by SWM » Sun Sep 27, 2015 11:10 am

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The size of the fusion bottle is not what determines the range of a missile. It is the design of the impeller rings. The impeller rings burn out; that's what determines the range of a microfusion missile.

Last edited by SWM on Sun Sep 27, 2015 11:14 am, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: Extended Range Fusion Missile
by Duckk » Sun Sep 27, 2015 11:11 am
Duckk Site Admin Posts: 4200 Joined: Sat Aug 08, 2009 5:29 pm	http://infodump.thefifthimperium.com/en ... gton/177/1 ------------------------- Shields at 50%, taunting at 100%! - Tom Pope
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Re: Extended Range Fusion Missile

by Duckk » Sun Sep 27, 2015 11:11 am

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http://infodump.thefifthimperium.com/en ... gton/177/1

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Re: Extended Range Fusion Missile
by Lord Skimper » Mon Sep 28, 2015 1:33 am
Lord Skimper Vice Admiral Posts: 1736 Joined: Wed Aug 07, 2013 12:49 am Location: Calgary, Nova, Gryphon.	I see. So the counter missile overloads its drive ring and while powerful is short lived. The cataphract makes the counter missile stage less powerful so it lasts twice as long? So could you make the missiles slower and run much longer? Is this how the ER missile works? could this work with the fusion missiles? ________________________________________ Just don't ask what is in the protein bars.
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Re: Extended Range Fusion Missile

by Lord Skimper » Mon Sep 28, 2015 1:33 am

Lord Skimper
Vice Admiral

Posts: 1736
Joined: Wed Aug 07, 2013 12:49 am
Location: Calgary, Nova, Gryphon.

I see. So the counter missile overloads its drive ring and while powerful is short lived. The cataphract makes the counter missile stage less powerful so it lasts twice as long? So could you make the missiles slower and run much longer? Is this how the ER missile works? could this work with the fusion missiles?

________________________________________
Just don't ask what is in the protein bars.

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Re: Extended Range Fusion Missile
by The E » Mon Sep 28, 2015 2:06 am
The E Admiral Posts: 2704 Joined: Tue May 07, 2013 1:28 pm Location: Meerbusch, Germany	Lord Skimper wrote:I see. So the counter missile overloads its drive ring and while powerful is short lived. The cataphract makes the counter missile stage less powerful so it lasts twice as long? So could you make the missiles slower and run much longer? Is this how the ER missile works? could this work with the fusion missiles? If you actually read the books, you will note that drives are already stepped down as SOP when the tactical situation demands it.
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Re: Extended Range Fusion Missile

by The E » Mon Sep 28, 2015 2:06 am

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Lord Skimper wrote:I see. So the counter missile overloads its drive ring and while powerful is short lived. The cataphract makes the counter missile stage less powerful so it lasts twice as long? So could you make the missiles slower and run much longer? Is this how the ER missile works? could this work with the fusion missiles?

If you actually read the books, you will note that drives are already stepped down as SOP when the tactical situation demands it.

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Re: Extended Range Fusion Missile
by SharkHunter » Thu Oct 01, 2015 11:36 pm
SharkHunter Vice Admiral Posts: 1608 Joined: Fri Nov 14, 2014 3:53 pm Location: Independence, Missouri	The E wrote: Lord Skimper wrote:I see. So the counter missile overloads its drive ring and while powerful is short lived. The cataphract makes the counter missile stage less powerful so it lasts twice as long? So could you make the missiles slower and run much longer? Is this how the ER missile works? could this work with the fusion missiles? If you actually read the books, you will note that drives are already stepped down as SOP when the tactical situation demands it. For fun I've been reading through again, hitting a bit about the range of the MDM's... at full throttle wide open start to finish (Buttercup) was only about 15MM kilometers. Stepped DOWN to 50% accel, the nodes last four times longer, and the missile is good for 60MM km. But the bigger deal is that with multiple stages, you can set different accel rates PER salvo.... and ballistic coast phase hiding makes its appearance. Sorta makes calculating things like massive and twisty "time on target" variations much more difficult to defend against. But only the 23E FTE control missile made those twists in-flight update-able close enough to be effective. --------------------- All my posts are YMMV, IMHO, and welcoming polite discussion, extension, and rebuttal. This is the HonorVerse, after all
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Re: Extended Range Fusion Missile

by SharkHunter » Thu Oct 01, 2015 11:36 pm

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The E wrote:
Lord Skimper wrote:I see. So the counter missile overloads its drive ring and while powerful is short lived. The cataphract makes the counter missile stage less powerful so it lasts twice as long? So could you make the missiles slower and run much longer? Is this how the ER missile works? could this work with the fusion missiles?

If you actually read the books, you will note that drives are already stepped down as SOP when the tactical situation demands it.

For fun I've been reading through again, hitting a bit about the range of the MDM's... at full throttle wide open start to finish (Buttercup) was only about 15MM kilometers. Stepped DOWN to 50% accel, the nodes last four times longer, and the missile is good for 60MM km. But the bigger deal is that with multiple stages, you can set different accel rates PER salvo.... and ballistic coast phase hiding makes its appearance. Sorta makes calculating things like massive and twisty "time on target" variations much more difficult to defend against. But only the 23E FTE control missile made those twists in-flight update-able close enough to be effective.

---------------------
All my posts are YMMV, IMHO, and welcoming polite discussion, extension, and rebuttal. This is the HonorVerse, after all

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