Kamerling lacks capacity

I was rereading HoS and was struck by the Kamerling's low stats in comparison to the Broadsword's.

The Broadsword is almost 8000 tons smaller, but carries a full battalion (3 rifle companies & a weapons company) + an assault company. The Broadsword also carries a hospital facility equivalent to a small station, ground combat control facilities, planetary strike/recon capacity, and enough small craft to drop all its Marines in a single drop. The Broadsword carried all of this capacity in a pre-automation/pre-miniaturization hull.

I assume the Kamerling has the same or better support capacities even though they're not specifically mentioned in the text, but it only carries 3 companies of Marines. Other than significantly better anti-missle defenses the weapons fit is nearly identical. I just can't see LERM missles taking up that much more space when you can fit 20 launchers in a 150,000 ton CL. The text says that the light weapons load is because additional tonnage was taken up by life support, but the Broadsword would have needed more life support tonnage than a Kamerling. It had two thirds more marines and a far larger crew.

Does anyone else see this as a discrepancy or know of a reason why the Kamerling doesn't seem to stackup?

The only thing I can come up with is that the Kamerling has some internal capacity that isn't specifically mentioned in the text. I just can't figure out what that could be. Since it says in the text that the Kamerling isn't designed to contest for control of space with other naval ships I can't bring myself to believe that it mounts DDM's.

I run into the same problem when I compare it to the Avalon. It has slightly better defenses, less offence, and assuming the Avalon carries a platoon of Marines the Kamerling has like 450 more Marines and some specialized support facilities, but is 120,000 tons heavier. It just doesn't track for me.

Anyone got any ideas?

Rowbi wrote:I was rereading HoS and was struck by the Kamerling's low stats in comparison to the Broadsword's.

The Broadsword is almost 8000 tons smaller, but carries a full battalion (3 rifle companies & a weapons company) + an assault company. The Broadsword also carries a hospital facility equivalent to a small station, ground combat control facilities, planetary strike/recon capacity, and enough small craft to drop all its Marines in a single drop. The Broadsword carried all of this capacity in a pre-automation/pre-miniaturization hull.

I assume the Kamerling has the same or better support capacities even though they're not specifically mentioned in the text, but it only carries 3 companies of Marines. Other than significantly better anti-missle defenses the weapons fit is nearly identical. I just can't see LERM missles taking up that much more space when you can fit 20 launchers in a 150,000 ton CL. The text says that the light weapons load is because additional tonnage was taken up by life support, but the Broadsword would have needed more life support tonnage than a Kamerling. It had two thirds more marines and a far larger crew.

Does anyone else see this as a discrepancy or know of a reason why the Kamerling doesn't seem to stackup?

The only thing I can come up with is that the Kamerling has some internal capacity that isn't specifically mentioned in the text. I just can't figure out what that could be. Since it says in the text that the Kamerling isn't designed to contest for control of space with other naval ships I can't bring myself to believe that it mounts DDM's.

I run into the same problem when I compare it to the Avalon. It has slightly better defenses, less offence, and assuming the Avalon carries a platoon of Marines the Kamerling has like 450 more Marines and some specialized support facilities, but is 120,000 tons heavier. It just doesn't track for me.

Anyone got any ideas?

It's got a good bit better anti-missile capability then the Broadsword. The life support reference goes well with the humanitarian missions mention - it may have far, far more excess life support to pick up people in addition to the Marines and crew than the Broadsword did, and to have a generous ability to remain on-station for extended periods.

I don't think that accounts for all of it; it's just all I've got.

Tom Pope mentioned to me that the Kamerling's Marine complement probably needs to be errata'ed.

Do you have any idea by how much? I could see like 3 battalions being carried instead of 3 companies. That would only give it like 140% more than a Broadsword. If it only carried enough small craft to drop a battalion I think it would be doable.

The knew LPX will be based on BC sized hull and will carry 3 regiments with the ability to drop an entire regiment in one go.

Duckk wrote:Tom Pope mentioned to me that the Kamerling's Marine complement probably needs to be errata'ed.

JeffEngel wrote:

Rowbi wrote:I was rereading HoS and was struck by the Kamerling's low stats in comparison to the Broadsword's.

The Broadsword is almost 8000 tons smaller, but carries a full battalion (3 rifle companies & a weapons company) + an assault company. The Broadsword also carries a hospital facility equivalent to a small station, ground combat control facilities, planetary strike/recon capacity, and enough small craft to drop all its Marines in a single drop. The Broadsword carried all of this capacity in a pre-automation/pre-miniaturization hull.

I assume the Kamerling has the same or better support capacities even though they're not specifically mentioned in the text, but it only carries 3 companies of Marines. Other than significantly better anti-missle defenses the weapons fit is nearly identical. I just can't see LERM missles taking up that much more space when you can fit 20 launchers in a 150,000 ton CL. The text says that the light weapons load is because additional tonnage was taken up by life support, but the Broadsword would have needed more life support tonnage than a Kamerling. It had two thirds more marines and a far larger crew.

Does anyone else see this as a discrepancy or know of a reason why the Kamerling doesn't seem to stackup?

The only thing I can come up with is that the Kamerling has some internal capacity that isn't specifically mentioned in the text. I just can't figure out what that could be. Since it says in the text that the Kamerling isn't designed to contest for control of space with other naval ships I can't bring myself to believe that it mounts DDM's.

I run into the same problem when I compare it to the Avalon. It has slightly better defenses, less offence, and assuming the Avalon carries a platoon of Marines the Kamerling has like 450 more Marines and some specialized support facilities, but is 120,000 tons heavier. It just doesn't track for me.

Anyone got any ideas?

It's got a good bit better anti-missile capability then the Broadsword. The life support reference goes well with the humanitarian missions mention - it may have far, far more excess life support to pick up people in addition to the Marines and crew than the Broadsword did, and to have a generous ability to remain on-station for extended periods.

I don't think that accounts for all of it; it's just all I've got.

If your talking about using the Kamerling's to stage some sort of evacuation I just don't see that working. Based on what we know of Honorverse ships I can't see them not using the internal volume that would take for another purpose. Having the extra space and life support tonnage to double your normal compliment briefly for an emergency is about as much as I could see being justified.

As far as extra cruise endurance I can't really see that either. Most older Heavy Cruisers such as the Starknights carried as many Marines with a larger crew and still managed to pack in a significant cruise endurance. Besides why would you need extended endurance in a ship designed to police your own space. Even if the Kamerling was designed when Silensia was still independent you wouldn't need more endurance than previous light or heavy cruisers.

Rowbi wrote:

JeffEngel wrote:It's got a good bit better anti-missile capability then the Broadsword. The life support reference goes well with the humanitarian missions mention - it may have far, far more excess life support to pick up people in addition to the Marines and crew than the Broadsword did, and to have a generous ability to remain on-station for extended periods.

I don't think that accounts for all of it; it's just all I've got.

If your talking about using the Kamerling's to stage some sort of evacuation I just don't see that working. Based on what we know of Honorverse ships I can't see them not using the internal volume that would take for another purpose. Having the extra space and life support tonnage to double your normal compliment briefly for an emergency is about as much as I could see being justified.

It was what I was talking about, and I concede the force of your points. I wasn't offering it as more than a clutching-at-straws sort of suggestion.

As far as extra cruise endurance I can't really see that either. Most older Heavy Cruisers such as the Starknights carried as many Marines with a larger crew and still managed to pack in a significant cruise endurance. Besides why would you need extended endurance in a ship designed to police your own space. Even if the Kamerling was designed when Silensia was still independent you wouldn't need more endurance than previous light or heavy cruisers.

I wasn't sure that the Broadsword particularly was suited to long-term deployment away from support with its large marine contingent, so the Kamerling being better able to do that with a similar contingent may account for the "missing" capability somewhat.

Also - though this is also something of a clutching at straws notion too - it may have been conceived for ground support and other life-support-intensive operations for indefinitely long periods in unpredictable locations away from support. Silesia's not a good example of that sort of environment, but the fringes of Talbott, for instance - it's a huge volume of space - or to a lesser extent, the regions around but outside Silesia itself would be another. Not that it could be predicted back then, but the wide-ranging mess that is for the next year or two the Solarian League will be another such environment. All that seems to be a strained requirement for a major ship class, but not a completely unbelievable one.

One thing that comes to mind is that in addition to more CM launchers, I suspect the Kamerlings also have many more CMs per launcher than the Broadswords, which would eat up some of that space.

Also, how do either of them stack up to the Nightstick class mentioned under the Truncheon entry? What about the Broadsword entry from the Jayne's book? Does it have more pertinent detail than HoS? (mine's packed away ATM)

Some other ideas (some more off the wall than others) might be -

1) more FTL recon drones/ground surveillance platforms than earlier classes

2) onboard stingships for atmospheric support/control in addition to the more usual pinnaces and assault shuttles

3) more and/or heavier "ground" vehicles than used to be standard for the RMMC

4) enough combat armor and heavy weapons to equip all three companies instead of just one

5) the extra life support mentioned upthread could allow for freed slaves to be transported if the situation warranted it, without packing everyone in like sardines

I'll do your points in order.

1) The Broadsword specifically mentions carrying abundant orbital recon satellites, planetary recon probes, and kinetic strike packages.

2 & 3) The idea that the Kamerling may be set up as a support ship for both the Marine units and Army style combined arms units is an interesting one. I just don't see it though. If the Kamerling were set up that way you could carry much more Marines when just carrying Marines instead of an Army unit. I can't see the Army wanting or allowing the Marines to acquire their own heavy combat vehicles and I don't see the Marines really wanting to either. The Marines are describe as a straight infantry force with no organic vehicle support other than navy small craft. Further more I can't see the Marines compromising their first response police ship by installing a vehicle only carrying capacity that only the Army would use. If they need the Army they can call them in and turn the problem over to them as Manticore's strategic doctrine requires. The army would come in on an Assault Transport or Civilian vessel with more transport capacity than a Kamerling could possibly provide them.

4) I really like this ideal allot. Having the Kamerling's Marine detachment be a pure Assault force makes alot of sense to me. It would be expensive, but well worth it considering that the Kamerling is designed to alleviate the lack of Marine combat power the new types are causing. An Assault only force could take and control far more territory than traditional battalion. This still doesn't really account for all of the lack of bodies considering how much capacity the RMN is packing into its other ships, but is a really good idea for some of it.

5) This would be another instance of creating a capacity that isn't needed or isn't needed often enough to justify compromising your design. Its stated in the books that if a ship is overhauled by a true warship they almost always surrender thus you don't need to have capacity to transport the slaves on your own ship. Since the Kamerling is designed to police Manticoran controlled space its not likely to be running across many full blown depots at least not when its by its self. If you do take a depot without higher command knowing you've done it; you capture the next slave ship to arrive and send it straight home to bring in the extra help you need.

Thanks for the ideas. I don't really think most of them quite fit. In the case of your number 4 I don't think it fully explains everything, but its better than anything I've thought of myself to explain the text as written. Thanks again.

jchilds wrote:One thing that comes to mind is that in addition to more CM launchers, I suspect the Kamerlings also have many more CMs per launcher than the Broadswords, which would eat up some of that space.

Also, how do either of them stack up to the Nightstick class mentioned under the Truncheon entry? What about the Broadsword entry from the Jayne's book? Does it have more pertinent detail than HoS? (mine's packed away ATM)

Some other ideas (some more off the wall than others) might be -

1) more FTL recon drones/ground surveillance platforms than earlier classes

2) onboard stingships for atmospheric support/control in addition to the more usual pinnaces and assault shuttles

3) more and/or heavier "ground" vehicles than used to be standard for the RMMC

4) enough combat armor and heavy weapons to equip all three companies instead of just one

5) the extra life support mentioned upthread could allow for freed slaves to be transported if the situation warranted it, without packing everyone in like sardines

Rowbi wrote:I'll do your points in order.

1) The Broadsword specifically mentions carrying abundant orbital recon satellites, planetary recon probes, and kinetic strike packages.

2 & 3) The idea that the Kamerling may be set up as a support ship for both the Marine units and Army style combined arms units is an interesting one. I just don't see it though. If the Kamerling were set up that way you could carry much more Marines when just carrying Marines instead of an Army unit. I can't see the Army wanting or allowing the Marines to acquire their own heavy combat vehicles and I don't see the Marines really wanting to either. The Marines are describe as a straight infantry force with no organic vehicle support other than navy small craft. Further more I can't see the Marines compromising their first response police ship by installing a vehicle only carrying capacity that only the Army would use. If they need the Army they can call them in and turn the problem over to them as Manticore's strategic doctrine requires. The army would come in on an Assault Transport or Civilian vessel with more transport capacity than a Kamerling could possibly provide them.

4) I really like this ideal allot. Having the Kamerling's Marine detachment be a pure Assault force makes alot of sense to me. It would be expensive, but well worth it considering that the Kamerling is designed to alleviate the lack of Marine combat power the new types are causing. An Assault only force could take and control far more territory than traditional battalion. This still doesn't really account for all of the lack of bodies considering how much capacity the RMN is packing into its other ships, but is a really good idea for some of it.

5) This would be another instance of creating a capacity that isn't needed or isn't needed often enough to justify compromising your design. Its stated in the books that if a ship is overhauled by a true warship they almost always surrender thus you don't need to have capacity to transport the slaves on your own ship. Since the Kamerling is designed to police Manticoran controlled space its not likely to be running across many full blown depots at least not when its by its self. If you do take a depot without higher command knowing you've done it; you capture the next slave ship to arrive and send it straight home to bring in the extra help you need.

Thanks for the ideas. I don't really think most of them quite fit. In the case of your number 4 I don't think it fully explains everything, but its better than anything I've thought of myself to explain the text as written. Thanks again.

jchilds wrote:One thing that comes to mind is that in addition to more CM launchers, I suspect the Kamerlings also have many more CMs per launcher than the Broadswords, which would eat up some of that space.

Also, how do either of them stack up to the Nightstick class mentioned under the Truncheon entry? What about the Broadsword entry from the Jayne's book? Does it have more pertinent detail than HoS? (mine's packed away ATM)

Some other ideas (some more off the wall than others) might be -

1) more FTL recon drones/ground surveillance platforms than earlier classes

2) onboard stingships for atmospheric support/control in addition to the more usual pinnaces and assault shuttles

3) more and/or heavier "ground" vehicles than used to be standard for the RMMC

4) enough combat armor and heavy weapons to equip all three companies instead of just one

5) the extra life support mentioned upthread could allow for freed slaves to be transported if the situation warranted it, without packing everyone in like sardines

4 seems likely in conjunction with Tom Pope's comment
[quote=duckk"]Tom Pope mentioned to me that the Kamerling's Marine complement probably needs to be errata'ed.[/quote]
Since Tom is the head of Bu Nine, his comments carry a certain amount of weight.