Mercenaries in the Honorverse:Manticore's hypocrisy?

Direwolf18 wrote:According to RFC it doesnt mind them at all! Why is this so hard when RFC is so clear. Unless you wan't to argue with RFC about what he does in his own universe. (Which I can name 1-2 people on these forums who do)

IF they are breaking the laws of war and acting like rapist and murders, then yes, they are going to find themselves taking a walk outside an airlock without a skinsuit. If they act as soldiers for hire, following such trifling things as the rules of war, then they will be treated as such.

I don't argue with him so much as discuss alternatives...

One might think of Private contractors in the last set of wars. Anything from Infamous Black Water or whatever they are called now, to the truck drivers who kept the supplies rolling.

Roguevictory wrote:

Mitchell, Esq. wrote:Why about Zilwicki's 'private security company'?

He's a merc outfit, without question... one that is operating on Manticore without trouble.

Mercenaries are not always bad to have around. Retired service people may have skills that are needed by the government for special jobs which can't be handled by uniformed services or other agencies in government.

Perhaps one want to support a government which is friendly... but you don't want to do so officially.

No problem. Find retired or separated people with the skills you need... and they go on 'vacation' to parts unknown for a year or two.

SWM wrote:I thought RFC made it clear that Manticore doesn't have a problem with mercenaries as such. It doesn't use them itself, and avoids situations where it would have to work with them, but does not prevent private companies from hiring mercenaries or security services, and does not prevent citizens from being hired as mercenaries or security services.

It doesn't seem to mind them if they are helping it though, see Honor's middy cruise captain who ran an armed cargo company that supplied intel to ONI. I wonder what happened to him after War of Honor?

How does Bachfish's armed ship constitute a "mercenary" force? His ships were armed solely for self-protection, which has been --- and still is --- a recognized right for vessels plying the high seas. Now, most present day ports are likely to throw a hissy fit and stiffly regulate (or more probablky probably exclude) any armed merchantmen entering their waters, but up until the very late 19th century, it was not at all uncommon for private vessels operating in uncertain waters to be armed. The current situation in which ships aren't even sufficiently well-armed to resist teenagers in speedboats off Somalia is totally out of step with the vast majority of maritime history. This may or may not be a good thing in our own experience, but if Bachfish's armament makes him a mercenary, then Klaus Hauptman is also a mercenary for having armed his passenger liners for self-defense in Silesia.

The definition some people are using for what constitutes a "mercenary force" is way, way, way too broad, in my opinion, in historical terms. And it is certainly enormously broader than anyone in the Honorverse would use.

runsforcelery wrote:


How does Bachfish's armed ship constitute a "mercenary" force? His ships were armed solely for self-protection, which has been --- and still is --- a recognized right for vessels plying the high seas. Now, most present day ports are likely to throw a hissy fit and stiffly regulate (or more probablky probably exclude) any armed merchantmen entering their waters, but up until the very late 19th century, it was not at all uncommon for private vessels operating in uncertain waters to be armed. The current situation in which ships aren't even sufficiently well-armed to resist teenagers in speedboats off Somalia is totally out of step with the vast majority of maritime history. This may or may not be a good thing in our own experience, but if Bachfish's armament makes him a mercenary, then Klaus Hauptman is also a mercenary for having armed his passenger liners for self-defense in Silesia.

The definition some people are using for what constitutes a "mercenary force" is way, way, way too broad, in my opinion, in historical terms. And it is certainly enormously broader than anyone in the Honorverse would use.

True though I thought he had to have an auxiliary warrant from the Silesian armed forces to make arming his ships legal. I thought that the auxiliary warrant would make make him and his ships part of a Silesian naval reserve though I guess that really wouldn't make him a mercenary unless he was paid for his services, or any pirates or privateers that his ships captured or destroyed. Sorry for the mixup.

Roguevictory wrote:
True though I thought he had to have an auxiliary warrant from the Silesian armed forces to make arming his ships legal. I thought that the auxiliary warrant would make make him and his ships part of a Silesian naval reserve though I guess that really wouldn't make him a mercenary unless he was paid for his services, or any pirates or privateers that his ships captured or destroyed. Sorry for the mixup.

The Silesian Navy might be corrupt enough not to care, but I suspect most navies would be pretty ticked if they found out one of their armed auxiliaries were off playing mercenary.

Jonathan_S wrote:

Roguevictory wrote:
True though I thought he had to have an auxiliary warrant from the Silesian armed forces to make arming his ships legal. I thought that the auxiliary warrant would make make him and his ships part of a Silesian naval reserve though I guess that really wouldn't make him a mercenary unless he was paid for his services, or any pirates or privateers that his ships captured or destroyed. Sorry for the mixup.

The Silesian Navy might be corrupt enough not to care, but I suspect most navies would be pretty ticked if they found out one of their armed auxiliaries were off playing mercenary.

Bachfish had connections as an old Silesian hand and the impression I got was that he was able to put some money in the proper hands to get the warrant giving him permission to arm his ships. Pat Givens was in the mix there too sinse Bachfish was an intel sourse for ONI. I'm not quite sure how she fit in.

Don

n7axw wrote:
Bachfish had connections as an old Silesian hand and the impression I got was that he was able to put some money in the proper hands to get the warrant giving him permission to arm his ships. Pat Givens was in the mix there too sinse Bachfish was an intel sourse for ONI. I'm not quite sure how she fit in.

Don

He was a merchant captain who still held a commision in the RMN Reserve. A lot of them file reports with ONI as part of their reservist duties.

n7axw wrote:Bachfish had connections as an old Silesian hand and the impression I got was that he was able to put some money in the proper hands to get the warrant giving him permission to arm his ships. Pat Givens was in the mix there too sinse Bachfish was an intel sourse for ONI. I'm not quite sure how she fit in.

Don

I was under the impression that at some point in the process, she was the one greasing the palms of the necessary people. Either that or threatening to break a few heads. Which ever worked.

KNick wrote:

n7axw wrote:Bachfish had connections as an old Silesian hand and the impression I got was that he was able to put some money in the proper hands to get the warrant giving him permission to arm his ships. Pat Givens was in the mix there too sinse Bachfish was an intel sourse for ONI. I'm not quite sure how she fit in.

Don

I was under the impression that at some point in the process, she was the one greasing the palms of the necessary people. Either that or threatening to break a few heads. Which ever worked.

The reference is in War of Honor when Bachfish shows up in Marsh the first time. I'd have to dig the book out and am a bit too lazy.

Don

KNick wrote:

n7axw wrote:Bachfish had connections as an old Silesian hand and the impression I got was that he was able to put some money in the proper hands to get the warrant giving him permission to arm his ships. Pat Givens was in the mix there too sinse Bachfish was an intel sourse for ONI. I'm not quite sure how she fit in.

Don

I was under the impression that at some point in the process, she was the one greasing the palms of the necessary people. Either that or threatening to break a few heads. Which ever worked.

Givens is a little bit subtler than breaking heads, surely. Her 'threats' would be more like a dossier of the approving authority's unlawful dealings attached to the application form for Bachfisch's warrant, marked for forwarding to the Silesian media in case the target needs a little more convincing.

ONI(and SIS) should have had permanent interests in Silesia, given how long it's been problematic(Edward Saganami died there in 1672pd). Obviously, that depends a lot on what the successive SKM governments let them do, but still. I wouldn't be too surprised to find a variant of the North Hollow Files, documenting much of the corruption in Silesia.

n7axw wrote:

Jonathan_S wrote:The Silesian Navy might be corrupt enough not to care, but I suspect most navies would be pretty ticked if they found out one of their armed auxiliaries were off playing mercenary.

Bachfish had connections as an old Silesian hand and the impression I got was that he was able to put some money in the proper hands to get the warrant giving him permission to arm his ships. Pat Givens was in the mix there too sinse Bachfish was an intel sourse for ONI. I'm not quite sure how she fit in.

Don

Yes, I knew why he was allowed to be armed. But my (unstated) thought was that he was using those arms for self-defense. And that most Navies should be happy to let their armed auxiliaries do that (as long as they're not hunting for chances to need to provide self-defense), but most Navies would not be happy with a ship nominally under their banner accepting outside money for military service.

(And then I went off on a tangent about how the Silesian Navy might have been corrupt enough for someone to accept bribes to look the other way if another naval auxiliary of their actually went full mercenary. I wasn't saying the Bachfisch's ships were acting as mercenaries; they aren't)