LAC Shipkiller missile range?

lyonheart wrote:I suspect a Mk-16 is cheaper than a viper, or even a Mk-31 CM.

I very much doubt your suspicion is correct; especially with regard to a Mk-31 CM. Both the Viper and Mk-31 CM are based on a single drive missile drive section with very limited range and the Mk-31 consists of very little more. I doubt that however capable a Viper's fire-and-forget seeker and warhead might be that it is anywhere near as expensive as a Mk-16's dual-drive section alone.

Weird Harold wrote:

lyonheart wrote:I suspect a Mk-16 is cheaper than a viper, or even a Mk-31 CM.

I very much doubt your suspicion is correct; especially with regard to a Mk-31 CM. Both the Viper and Mk-31 CM are based on a single drive missile drive section with very limited range and the Mk-31 consists of very little more. I doubt that however capable a Viper's fire-and-forget seeker and warhead might be that it is anywhere near as expensive as a Mk-16's dual-drive section alone.

And the kind of sensor that gives you fire and forget capabilities against LACs at 3.5 Mkm, might well be cheaper than the sensor you need to engage warships at 16 Mkm.

So the Mk16s drives, and probably sensor, are more expensive than the corresponding system on the Viper's. I assume the microfusion power plant costs more that capacitors. And the Mk16 carries a bigger warhead with more laser rods; that's got to be more expensive.

I just don't see where the cost savings for the bigger, longer ranged, missile would be...


All that said, if a Roland is dealing with an incoming wave of LACs I doubt they'd skip the chance to begin attriting them beyond Mk31 range (unless they needed their limited Mk16s for a higher priority target) - so cost be damned, I expect they'd usually being engaging with Mk16s and only fall back to Vipers when the range closed. (If nothing else, waiting till Viper range gives the incoming LACs a chance to flush their SDMs before you can take them out)

Jonathan_S wrote:So the Mk16s drives, and probably sensor, are more expensive ...

Neither of us mentioned Pen-aids, ECM, and who knows what is crammed into the Mk-16 series.

I can see where a viper might be comparable in price because of defrayed R&D costs, but they'd have to be huge R&D costs and I've seen nothing to suggest that.

Jonathan_S wrote:All that said, if a Roland is dealing with an incoming wave of LACs I doubt they'd skip the chance to begin attriting them beyond Mk31 range (unless they needed their limited Mk16s for a higher priority target) - so cost be damned, I expect they'd usually being engaging with Mk16s and only fall back to Vipers when the range closed. (If nothing else, waiting till Viper range gives the incoming LACs a chance to flush their SDMs before you can take them out)

Yeah, cost isn't usually a concern of the guys at the sharp end. The only combat vet I can ever remember talking about this was the F4 driver who taught my CAS course at Ft Sill. He mentioned that one of the questions he asked before he dropped a Walleye on a target in Vietnam was "Is this target worth 3 Cadillacs?"

Hi Jonathan_S, Weird Harold,

Perhaps you're right.

OTOH, we have so little to compare current these 2 missile costs which are not very comparable, far less than when RFC explained things in past posts regarding other missile costs.

Regardless, since an MDM cost M$1-2M each before Apollo, a Mk-16 or Mk-31/Viper is far cheaper than a M$100M LAC.

But given the relative older age of the Mk-16, I suspect the MK-31 and Viper which are probably less than 2 years old haven't yet reached the maturity of production that the Mk-16 had before OB.

The admiralty had no problem flooding Mike with Mk-16's after OB for example.

If the 1 million km range CM of the first war cost around a M$1M, and the 1.5 M km model at Monica cost M$1.5-2M, both of which is pure speculation on my part [they could have been half that] the far greater capabilities of the MK-31/Viper easily have justified initial costs in the M$5-6 M range, which have of course dropped precipitously, but to what yet I don't know.

Given their far higher acceleration and an advanced seeker [AI?] for the Viper, compared to the relative old technology of the MDM's drive sections, the Mk-16's DDM of 6 minutes may indeed be cheaper than the Mk-31's 130,000 G acceleration for 75 seconds.

Until RFC informs us, we can only guess.

L

Jonathan_S wrote:

Weird Harold wrote:**quote="lyonheart"**I suspect a Mk-16 is cheaper than a viper, or even a Mk-31 CM.**/quote**

I very much doubt your suspicion is correct; especially with regard to a Mk-31 CM. Both the Viper and Mk-31 CM are based on a single drive missile drive section with very limited range and the Mk-31 consists of very little more. I doubt that however capable a Viper's fire-and-forget seeker and warhead might be that it is anywhere near as expensive as a Mk-16's dual-drive section alone.

And the kind of sensor that gives you fire and forget capabilities against LACs at 3.5 Mkm, might well be cheaper than the sensor you need to engage warships at 16 Mkm.

So the Mk16s drives, and probably sensor, are more expensive than the corresponding system on the Viper's. I assume the microfusion power plant costs more that capacitors. And the Mk16 carries a bigger warhead with more laser rods; that's got to be more expensive.

I just don't see where the cost savings for the bigger, longer ranged, missile would be...

Hi KZT,

Back in 2002-2003 at a section no longer part of the Tooele Army Depot, I saw Walleye guidance components completely trashed on the ground, 30 years earlier they'd been classified of course.

As an army brat born at Fort Sill, where and when did you serve, if you don't mind me asking?

L

kzt wrote:

Jonathan_S wrote:All that said, if a Roland is dealing with an incoming wave of LACs I doubt they'd skip the chance to begin attriting them beyond Mk31 range (unless they needed their limited Mk16s for a higher priority target) - so cost be damned, I expect they'd usually being engaging with Mk16s and only fall back to Vipers when the range closed. (If nothing else, waiting till Viper range gives the incoming LACs a chance to flush their SDMs before you can take them out)

Yeah, cost isn't usually a concern of the guys at the sharp end. The only combat vet I can ever remember talking about this was the F4 driver who taught my CAS course at Ft Sill. He mentioned that one of the questions he asked before he dropped a Walleye on a target in Vietnam was "Is this target worth 3 Cadillacs?"

Once thousands upon thousands of missiles are being mass manufactured, the cost drops drastically. Down to the point that the only limiting factor is the raw materials cost and maintenance cost for the manufacturing line. From what we can tell, all of these missiles are made on a robotic assembly manufacturing line. No human hands on them. The cost is all tied up in R&D of the missile itself, the set up time of the assembly line, and lastly, the minor part, the raw materials.

Same reason JDAM kits cost so little. Initially it was thought it was going to be really expensive, then the secondary test results came back(after proof of concept testing). An even 30 for 30 hits. Well was 28 for 30, but was found that the missed container targets were literally MOVED by the shockwaves from the other 28 dropped 2000lb bombs thus creating a "miss". The Airforce immediately told Boeing(bought McD's), who really was nothing but a name plate holder while Honeywell did all of the real work, to mass produce them ASAP. Thousands of kits were manufactured. The cost plummeted. Why JSOW, etc are so expensive. All that R&D sunk cost, but the airforce and navy are not really buying.

On the other hand ExCalibur is expensive, effective, but not very useable. Why? Range limited to 45km or 30 miles or so. Initially it was tied to the hip of Paladin going with +200mm artillery instead of the 155mm standard. Anyways, the larger artillery would have given a radius of over 60 miles increasing its area suppression, denial, effectiveness by 400%. So, very few were ordered as the final product, the 155 round, has so little explosive in it, that effective suppression is compromised. (personally, I would ditch 155mm and go with a combined +200mm, and 100mm or 120mm for commonality with tank ammunition).

For instance, mistletoe will be WAY more expensive than missiles. Even though it is a simple modification to an RD architecture. Hmm, wonder how many of these buggers the RMN bought? Could destroy my thesis right there huh?

lyonheart wrote:Hi KZT,

Back in 2002-2003 at a section no longer part of the Tooele Army Depot, I saw Walleye guidance components completely trashed on the ground, 30 years earlier they'd been classified of course.

As an army brat born at Fort Sill, where and when did you serve, if you don't mind me asking?

I think that would have been spring-summer 1988.

Whitecold wrote:Every modern Manty ships that is able to fire newest generation countermissiles can be armed with vipers, so the question is if the fire from the main batteries is needed. But I'd rather err on the side of caution and expend more expensive missiles than end up with a swarm of energy-heavy LAC's at minimum range.

Good job the energy heavy LACs are all on the side of the GA then isn't it? Well, ok. The known energy heavy LACs, the MA/RF may well have some...

As for using Mk16s or Apollo on them, well the RMN/GSN didn't during the Cutworm raids, so why would they start now that there are some constraints on ammunition?

Hi WLBjork,

You mean aside from that's their mission as a screening element?

Actually there is textev [or a pearl] that's what the Roland's Mk-16's are for, when the LAC threat is that severe presumably in part because a DDM is cheaper than an MDM.

Granted we have no textev that any Sollie LAC's are that good, NTM since Mk-16 being much simpler than Apollo's may have restarted production again even in Manticore.

So far the GA hasn't been constrained by missile expenditure, they're worried about it, but with something between 2.5-3 million pods, it hasn't affected any battles or operations yet, then given that its already October, Beowulf may have restarted Apollo production by now, easing those same concerns.

L

WLBjork wrote:

Whitecold wrote:Every modern Manty ships that is able to fire newest generation countermissiles can be armed with vipers, so the question is if the fire from the main batteries is needed. But I'd rather err on the side of caution and expend more expensive missiles than end up with a swarm of energy-heavy LAC's at minimum range.

Good job the energy heavy LACs are all on the side of the GA then isn't it? Well, ok. The known energy heavy LACs, the MA/RF may well have some...

As for using Mk16s or Apollo on them, well the RMN/GSN didn't during the Cutworm raids, so why would they start now that there are some constraints on ammunition?